feeling mislead

Getting him neutered will help with both the behavioral problems, and the housetraining.

What obiedence classes has he been to? What types of mental activites have you started to help him overcome his fears? For Casey - this was going to the park.

Casey was 10 months when I got him, roughly, and had many more problems than Zack. It is workable, but you have to stick with it. Work with him - and don't force him to do things he's not comfortable with.

 I'm just wondering, but did you do any  breed research on Zack? These dogs are not the easiest and require a certain amount of dedication on your part. JMHO

I really don't think that matters now, she has the dog - and needs to focus on what she can do NOW, rather than what should have been done before.

When I got Casey - he was not housetrained, crate trained, highly fear/reactive aggressive, and had slight dog aggression (but I think that was due more to his intense fear aggression). My work started with him the moment I picked him up to put him in my car. He was kept on a very strict schedule, crate when I wasn't home, and not allowed on furniture, the bed, or anything unless he 'asked' and I said OK. I spent so many nights bringning different people over, so he would know that strangers are ok. He wasn't allowed to bark at the doorbell, bark at company, or any of those typical little dog things. When people came over, he was sent to 'his room' until he could be a nice boy and come and say hello. That took MONTHS, close to a YEAR, before he was able to come out, and stay out, when we have people over. He now lays down in the same room as visiting guests and can be pet.

Lots of trips 'out' of the house helped. We went to petsmart, the dog park, parks in general, around the block, work, skating rink, - all over the place. He was never coddeled when he was afraid - we pushed through it and moved on. Treats and praise were his best friends. Every new place he went - he got a new treat. This took TIME, trust me, nothing happened over night. He got the crate training right away,but the house training took time. He now has free roam of the house at all times, even when no one else is home. He glady welcomes people guests and animal guests into our hom.

On the greater issue of breeders, I echo Liesje. I have high standards, and Zack's breeder fall short. Especially for the temperament issue  and under-socialization.

I am only familiar with ridgeback breeders, but the breeders I know and admire value temperament as much as conformation. They also don't fool themselves about their dogs' weaknesses.

I have a heart for rescue, but I am THRILLED with my purchased pup, Eko. Getting him was one of the best decisions I've made. He's a RR puppy, so he's a pain in the rear, but he's a fantastic dog with as solid a temperament as I've ever seen.

Rescue is great, and so is buying a puppy. There are bad rescues and bad breeders, and mediocre ones too. There are also great ones.

- - -

On the issue of socializing a timid and reactive puppy, I don't have personal experience but I know several wonderful dogs at the dog park who I'm told were terrified and/or extremely timid when the owners got them. I'll ask around about what worked for them.

Hugs to you and Zack. It's a bummer you were mislead, but he's lucky to have you.  

Could this have something to do with a fear stage, as well as making a big change later in puppyhood?  How are you dealing with his issues?  And be sure to socialize him separately from your other dog. He can pick up bad habits from your other pup and also he needs to be socialized separately from his pack to build confidence.

Logan was a very confident pup but when he was going thru a fear stage he was a completely different dog.   

Kenya was also quite fearful and antisocial when I got her.  The difference is that unlike Casey, she was not a shelter dog (she lived quite the privileged existence!) and unlike Zack's breeder, Kenya's breeder was honest about her temperament and what might have contributed to it.  I've had her less than a year and she has come a LONG way.  Besides her show and obedience titles, she earned the CGC, TDI, and is set to earn the TT in July.  Those are all things that involve socialization and temperament over strict obedience.  When I first got her, if I stepped on a stick and it cracked, she would spook.  If she came face to face with another dog, she'd curl her lip.  Now, she is initiating play with multiple dogs during training classes (we let them play before and after) and last night, she ran out the back door to greet two of my friends and my cousin. There are still a few quirks we are working on but so far she has exceeding our expectations in many areas and both I and the breeder are thrilled with her progress.  Like Erica said, what helped Kenya a lot is very rigid structure, at least at first (meals, walks, and potty always at the same times, not a lot of over stimulation, limited affection and play...basically giving the dog a lot of structure, predictability, and not being overbearing, just letting the dog settle in on its own).

Liesje

and unlike Zack's breeder, Kenya's breeder was honest about her temperament

 

I think we're being perhaps a bit harsh to say the breeder was not honest. What SHE saw in her home might have been what was told. Even the OP herself said that her socialization left a lot to be desired...that does not equal dishonesty in my book.

I certainly do not take entire LITTERS of puppies here or there...and where should you take them? As a breeder any place dogs are welcome to be...can also lead to sick puppies. You have to remember breeders do NOT typically have pups during the heavy socialization time of 8-16 weeks...we have them when they vulnerable to disease and bad experiences.

I migth take a small pup like 6-8 weeks down to Lily's school to pick her up...but I would not allow many folks to interact. When I have done this the puppies are typically fearful and trembling. My socialisation does not include trips out here there and everywhere, and lots of strangers handling them. Thankfully I have kids HERE...other dogs that are safe HERE...loud noises HERE....cats HERE. My socialisation is presenting new objects or novel concepts...trips out in the yard, exposure to TV and radio, leash and collar....etc things that are safe for the puppies. Beagles are such that this is enough because even a shy Beagle...LIKES people by nature.

In this breed, that may not be the case...and they may need more. But again if this person is all about her dogs, loving them she may well be overprotective of them and that could lead to a puppy that is shy...being missed.

I don't know her side...and until I do I won't call her dishonest.

rwbeagles

Liesje

and unlike Zack's breeder, Kenya's breeder was honest about her temperament

 

I think we're being perhaps a bit harsh to say the breeder was not honest. What SHE saw in her home might have been what was told. Even the OP herself said that her socialization left a lot to be desired...that does not equal dishonesty in my book.

 

Fair enough.  I guess that's what I picked up from the tone of the first post.  If there is/was an obvious "problem" (hate to refer to them as problems, or "bad";), the breeder should have disclosed, but you are right there may not have been a problem or the dog is just different in a different environment. 

jenns

 I keep wanting to write the breeder and tell her but I feel like it is pointless, it's not like I am asking for money back or to return him.  I don't know, should I email her?  What can she possibly tell me?  Oh, and she also failed to mention the fact that he is monorchid (1 testicle) until I already put my deposit down.  He is a gorgeous dog, a fantastic example of the breed.  I just feel so overwhelmed.  This goes to show that championship titles and perfect conformation don't mean a thing when you just want a family pet.  Unfortunately there is no incentive for show breeders to breed for temperment and I think that's wrong. 

Gosh Jenns I am truly sorry for what has happened to you !! It really stinks !! Please do write the breeder and convey what you and your vet have observed.  Document the dog's reactions and behaviors, explain what YOU are doing to to address the situation.  Ask her if she has any specific reccomendations ,  make sure you keep records of classes, trainers and books ....  You do not want to return the dog , and I am guessing she sold him at a pet price due to the monochrid issue so you can 't ask for a difference in price ....but she should be aware that the puppy is NOT as represented.  IF she is a really concerned and an ethical breeder she would be helping you with research  etc for trainers , classes ??? I do this for every puppy for the life of that animal. Not just it's cute puppy stage.

Be forwarned, there is always the chance the breeder will Blame you. Some folks find fault rather than fixes...   The pup I am currently working with was represented as well socialized, nd house trained... Nope,  It has taken months to keep him from growling at everyone, especially the children , and as for housebroken,... he was a winter litter so the breeder litter box trained him.  That is NOT housebroken ... I am struggling to make him understand this is not acceptable, simply finding a spot no one will see and going there... he now is giving a brief notice when he needs to go out , but you had better not miss that signal !!

He is lucky he landed in your loving home, he could have been dumped at a shelter because of his issues by now!!

Hang in there,  and fingers crossed that you are able to make things work!

Bonita of Bwana

jenns

I keep wanting to write the breeder and tell her but I feel like it is pointless, it's not like I am asking for money back or to return him.  I don't know, should I email her?  What can she possibly tell me?  Oh, and she also failed to mention the fact that he is monorchid (1 testicle) until I already put my deposit down.  He is a gorgeous dog, a fantastic example of the breed.  I just feel so overwhelmed.  This goes to show that championship titles and perfect conformation don't mean a thing when you just want a family pet.  Unfortunately there is no incentive for show breeders to breed for temperment and I think that's wrong. 

     A cryptorchid or monorchid pup is pet quality. Most people want a perfect pet, show quality in their living room. Many otherwise good buyers won't consider pups with faults, even though they don't realize ALL pet quality pups have them to an extent. Some just sound worse than others. Personally, I don't blame the breeder for not mentioning it, becuase her first priority has to be to find a good home, and those will just not make themselves available if they think the pup is imperfect. Pet quality are those pups that are healthy but have faults ... an undescended testicle is a serious fault, but once the dog is neutered, the slightly higher risk of testicular cancer is 100% gone :)

     Keep in mind also that pups can display different temperaments when they are in a comfortable environment with their breeder & littermates than when they are sold and suddenly find themselves in a strange place. Fear like you described is usually a socialization issue, and yeah, a good chunk of that lies on the breeder. Part of it is breeding, too. But don't take that the wrong way. If you breed enough litters you will see both temperament & health problems no matter how good the sire/dam are. Faults are unavoidable in a breeding program. In ANY breeding program, not just show breeders.

     Another thing. You have the wrong view of show breeders. I'd be the first one to admit there are those who breed for ribbons and nothing else. They disregard health, temperament, even proper structure to produce animals that look good in the ring. But MOST show breeders do breed for temperament, and one of the reasons I began crossing into show lines was not only to improve conformation, but temperament as well. A good show dog is more likely to have a solid temperament due to all the socialization and stressors they have in the show ring. It's a crowded, noisy place, and only a well tempered dog will shine in the ring.

She could indeed be a total liar...LOL I am keeping all in the realm of possible. I just know how puppies are at that age...they change, daily...the shyest one day is the boldest the next...I've seen it again and again here. Sometimes it's just truly bad breeding and others, just bad timing.

From a breeder/seller's perspective, I find it's best to be polite...and respectful of the buyer when they contact you...because above all you want your puppy with you, if things truly aren't a good fit. At least that's me...I know not all folks out there are like that...and I have dealt with some myself

For the OP....

You sound like you love the little guy and are willing to do the work. I commend you for that. Take some time and review everything that took place..including things you could have asked or said and things that went down on her end...it's a learning experience with every new dog a person acquires...whatever the source. As they said the course of true love never did run smooth LOL. You know us old battle scarred veteran type owner's are here for the training and commiserating part...LOL.

HoundMusic

 Personally, I don't blame the breeder for not mentioning it, becuase her first priority has to be to find a good home, and those will just not make themselves available if they think the pup is imperfect. 

 

I don't mean to pick on you - really! - but I can't disagree more about it being ok to withhold information out of fear that it will drive buyers away. I find that unethical. Cryptorchid neuters are more complex than normal ones. It isn't the same as "Oh yeah the pup has too much white." If someone can't find good homes for puppies by being honest, they need to be prepared to keep and care for those puppies until good homes are found.

Dog_ma

HoundMusic

 Personally, I don't blame the breeder for not mentioning it, becuase her first priority has to be to find a good home, and those will just not make themselves available if they think the pup is imperfect. 

 

I don't mean to pick on you - really! - but I can't disagree more about it being ok to withhold information out of fear that it will drive buyers away. I find that unethical. Cryptorchid neuters are more complex than normal ones. It isn't the same as "Oh yeah the pup has too much white." If someone can't find good homes for puppies by being honest, they need to be prepared to keep and care for those puppies until good homes are found.

     Which is why pet quality pups are sold for less $, usually. If it were me, and there was a problem like that, I might reimburse any extra incurred on the Vet bill for the neutering. The priority is finding a good home, and based on my experience I can tell you that if you have anything show quality or a finished champion in your breeding program, some people want near perfect show quality in their living room. They don't like the concept of pet quality. These can be great homes, but are very hard to find if you advertise every fault. The OP was told about the fault after the breeder felt like she had a good home lined up, so it wasn't as though it was witheld completely. That would be another story.

Dog_ma

HoundMusic

 Personally, I don't blame the breeder for not mentioning it, becuase her first priority has to be to find a good home, and those will just not make themselves available if they think the pup is imperfect. 

 

I don't mean to pick on you - really! - but I can't disagree more about it being ok to withhold information out of fear that it will drive buyers away. I find that unethical. Cryptorchid neuters are more complex than normal ones. It isn't the same as "Oh yeah the pup has too much white." If someone can't find good homes for puppies by being honest, they need to be prepared to keep and care for those puppies until good homes are found.

 

I agree.  Every reputable breeder I know will simply state that NO dog is perfect and will objectively point out the strong points and the faults of each dog in their kennel.  Any breeder trying to convince anyone that any dog is absolutely perfect is nuts.  Withholding info like that, even though the only real consequence for a pet dog is a more expensive neuter, just seems really shady to me.  Especially if the breeder has limited reg and a spay/neuter contract for pet dogs, the person should know so they are prepared before the neuter.

HoundMusic

     A cryptorchid or monorchid pup is pet quality. Most people want a perfect pet, show quality in their living room. Many otherwise good buyers won't consider pups with faults, even though they don't realize ALL pet quality pups have them to an extent. Some just sound worse than others. Personally, I don't blame the breeder for not mentioning it, becuase her first priority has to be to find a good home, and those will just not make themselves available if they think the pup is imperfect. Pet quality are those pups that are healthy but have faults ... an undescended testicle is a serious fault, but once the dog is neutered, the slightly higher risk of testicular cancer is 100% gone :)

I find myself really disagreeing with that statement.  Yes, a good breeders' job is to find wonderful homes for all their pups, but that shouldn't be at the cost of the potential buyer.  Selling pet quality dogs and pretending they aren't pet quality whether it by omission of the faults or blatant lies is and underhanded move by a breeder.  Even among pet quality dogs there is also a great divergence in what can result in that category.  For instance improper ear set or a missmarked dog is far different than say one with a luxating patella.

When I initially started looking at breeders, I was mainly looking for a pet quality papillon of sound movement and body since although I had no interest in conformation I was considering possible athletic competitions such as agility.  I knew pet quality meant not show quality, but it didn't discourage me and I would think a reputable breeder would want to find owners for their pet quality dogs that have that open mindset.  After listening to what I was looking for in a dog, the breeder I got Kirby from ended up mentioning him as a possibility.  She made no attempts at hiding his faults.  Initially she had picked him from the litter as a pup she was interested in possibly showing and breeding.  After exiting the puppy stage however he ended up a little too tall.  She also had no problems mentioning he didn't like to share his chewies with other dogs, disliked being left alone and would probably go through a barking phase with it since it wasn't something he had much practice with considering there was almost someone home with the dogs, and little leash work considering he was ten months at the time.  Sure, that info might have discouraged me, but that would have meant that Kirby wouldn't have been a right match for me.  Instead I feel blessed knowing what I was getting into ahead of time.

If someone is so fickle they expect perfection in any dog, show quality or not, a dog probably isn't a right match for them.  They would be better off with a pretty trinket that isn't going have accidents or leave fur on the sofa.

I think a lot of times people are searching for that perfect dog.  The one that trains up so easy, is bomb proof out in public, and a perfect fit.  The truth is even getting a pup from the best of breeders doesn't mean it is going to be easy.  By nature pups require a lot of work and time especially if you want to raise them up right.

 

Jenns- I can't help but feel your own fears might be hurting your chances with Zack.  I have read past posts you've made about Zoe, and your struggles with her being a reactive dog and I can't help but wonder if your fear of having a repeat problem with your new dog Zack you might not be accidentally crippling yourself in the process.  Sort of creating a self fulfilling prophecy so to speak.  Might be good just to take a few days of from the issue.  Do something fun with your doggy pack where you don't have to worry about training and give you and the gang a chance to breath. 

Reactivity is not an easy issue to deal with, I know.  After being startled in a petstore by a unexpected close encounter with a large German Shepard, Kirby suddenly decided that to insure it never happened again it was his job to play the part of a mini Cujo to keep anything potentially threatening form approaching whether it was a car, person, dog, or a fallen branch in the middle of the road.  We all know how evil those creaky fallen tree branches can be after all.

I'm not going to lie, there was a few days I came back from a simple walk around the neighborhood and balled my eyes out because the last thing I ever wanted was one of those horrible yappy little dogs that everyone hates and suddenly I had one and I couldn't find the undo button to fix it.  The hardest thing about reactivity is often there is no easy fast fix.  It takes time, dedication, and the nerves to not be embarrassed, and ignore all the cold stares of others when your out in public working on the reactivity issue, even when you just know everyone is thinking, what a horrible little animal.  Why on earth would they bring that little demon out in public?  They clearly suck at dog ownership. 

To help Zack you got to push back all those little voices and you have to push back your own fear of failure, of him getting worse.  As hard as it might be you have to have confidence in yourself, and your dog before you can expect your dog to have confidence in you, and then in turn themselves.  It's a long road, but some would say it isn't how high on the mountain you stand at the end of the day, but how low you originally started to have climbed to that hight.