The Elitist Attitude.

Agree, agree, agree, on all counts (for a change!)

FourIsCompany

And besides, if someone doesn't follow certain standards and they get called a name (like byb or irresponsible), well, boo-hoo. It's a free country. If a person doesn't want to be called such names, perhaps they should act more responsibly.

Really?  Ya think?! 

FourIsCompany

And where does that meaning come from? If you look up the definition of the word (elite, elitism), I don't think you'll find anything about people forcing their standards on others.

Try reading my previous post!  I already answered that for Chuffy but I guess I can post it again for you from American Heritage Dictionary;

"e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism n.  

1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
1. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
2. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class

FourIsCompany

And besides, if someone doesn't follow certain standards and they get called a name (like byb or irresponsible), well, boo-hoo.

So if someone does not follow "certain" standards its OK to label them as irresponsible?  Who sets those "certain" standards?  Is there just one set of "certain" standards or many sets of "certain" standards?

FourIsCompany

It's a free country. If a person doesn't want to be called such names, perhaps they should act more responsibly.

And by "free country" it sounds like you mean people are "free" to do as YOU want them to otherwise YOU are free to impugn their character! 

Mark

Marklf

Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class

Who is controlling, ruling or dominating you? Giving an opinion about what you do is NOT controlling, ruling or dominating you. You're still free to do as you please.

Marklf

So if someone does not follow "certain" standards its OK to label them as irresponsible? 

Absolutely! We all have the right to have and voice our opinions. It's absolutely OK.  

Marklf

Who sets those "certain" standards?

Standards (Just a few of many)

Responsible breeders do not breed to make money-because they know they won't. Responsible breeders do not breed their dog just to produce some cute little babies [...] Responsible breeders do not breed unless they are convinced that their knowledge, experience, and devotion to their favorite breed will result in a mating that will produce an exceptional litter, with qualities that are as near as possible to the ideal for that breed. [...] Responsible breeders know that their responsibility doesn't end when their babies leave with new owners. They make sure their baby’s' new families know they can turn to them with any questions or problems that arise throughout the pet’s lives.

Marklf

Is there just one set of "certain" standards or many sets of "certain" standards?

Clearly, everyone has their own standards. If not, we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we?  

Marklf

And by "free country" it sounds like you mean people are "free" to do as YOU want them to otherwise YOU are free to impugn their character! 

I don't know that I've impugned anyone's character. But people are free to do as they will. You are free to do as YOU want. If I don't approve, I'm free to say so. Is there an argument to the contrary? Are you saying that we aren't free to say that others are irresponsible when we judge their actions to be irresponsible?

ron2

Is it more important that they receive training well and easy? Their job has become to fit into the family group and not eat the cats. But there would still be some variation in the physical dimensions, even then. So, were the chuckchi ethical? The breed was fairly hearty and healthy. And they didn't select by preemptive surgery. There were sometimes drastic measures.

 And to breed a Sibe simply to be an easy family pet, is to breed away from the temperament they are supposed to have.  The breed was fairly hearty and healthy due greatly to natural selection - sickly dogs who couldn't take the hard work or climate weren't around long enough to breed.

ron2

If I were a chukchi and were to breed superior sled dogs, Shadow would have been an excellet source. Big, fast, strong, runs like the wind and loves doing it. A bit independent but biddable enough to train. He has the aspects of a great sled dog but is faulted against the AKC standards in both Sibe and Lab breeds, not to mention being a mutt, or mix of two breeds, which is not recognized by the AKC.

 If you were looking to breed superior sled dog dogs, you'd not use an untested, unproven dog. Maybe Shadow would be a great sled dog but you can't assume he would be having never tested him as one.

AgileGSD

 And to breed a Sibe simply to be an easy family pet, is to breed away from the temperament they are supposed to have.  The breed was fairly hearty and healthy due greatly to natural selection - sickly dogs who couldn't take the hard work or climate weren't around long enough to breed.

I totally agree. And I think it's dangerous to have some parts of the AKC standard in place. There will come a time when it becomes form over function.

AgileGSD

If you were looking to breed superior sled dog dogs, you'd not use an untested, unproven dog. Maybe Shadow would be a great sled dog but you can't assume he would be having never tested him as one

At least by way of the AKC standard. In reference to Snownose's reply, too, when the chukchi were breeding sled dogs, they were most decidely not AKC type people. Of course, Shadow's coat might not be suitable for those truly frigid climates. That's not the point. The point is, they created a healthy breed based on workability and temperment, rather than physical dimensions. At the risk of overreaching, I see modern breeders of alaskan husky as doing the something similar with the goal being the biggest, strongest, fastest sled dog, regardless of coat. In fact, a number of alaskan huskies I have seen are somewhat short-coated. And the look varies considerably, as well as some of the dimensions. And I have run into elitism from some owners of alaskan huskies, to get back to topic. But sometimes, elitism, by an definition, might be a good thing. One definition offered is when one person sets a standard and expects others to adhere to it. I wouldn't always call it elitism. Sometimes, a person just happens to be right, even if that hurts others' feelings.

I guess the differential question is what is meant by "proven"? For some, it is strict adherence physical structure of the AKC standards. For others, it is job suitability. A breeder of GSDs for police work is more interested, I would assume, and someone can correct me if I am wrong, in the ability to do the job and mind the handler than the finished height at the shoulder, or even whether the dog is long-coated. Though, if he/she can, attention will be paid to both details. And each viewpoint might be viewed as elitist, depending on perspective. The only time I have run into breed snobbery personally is from owners of alaskan huskies, which is not a recognized breed, but a type of dog with a specific job.

ron2

At least by way of the AKC standard. In reference to Snownose's reply, too, when the chukchi were breeding sled dogs, they were most decidely not AKC type people. Of course, Shadow's coat might not be suitable for those truly frigid climates. That's not the point. The point is, they created a healthy breed based on workability and temperment, rather than physical dimensions. At the risk of overreaching, I see modern breeders of alaskan husky as doing the something similar with the goal being the biggest, strongest, fastest sled dog, regardless of coat. In fact, a number of alaskan huskies I have seen are somewhat short-coated. And the look varies considerably, as well as some of the dimensions. And I have run into elitism from some owners of alaskan huskies, to get back to topic.

Something that needs to be pointed out about Huskies is, even though they look huge and strong if you feel the body of a Husky(Sibe), there really isn't that big strong body that you think it is, it's alot of hair.....as a matter of fact, they are very fine boned and light weight in comparison to a Lab or  Malamute, what the other breeds are in your dog and my dog......now, the Alaskan Husky of today has Hound bred in for speed and that is why you get the speed and sometimes not a good coat......and they try to make the racing sleds as lightweight as possible with the least amount of supplies needed, so they are competitive.......Karen Ramstead of Canada runs an all Sibe team.....beautiful, but not very fast........

Just to add,many decent sized dog can be used for recreational mushing,heck, some GSDs are even used for sprint racing......I am sure Shadow would be great for recreational mushing.....you can try by doing skijoring.....

Ron, here is a pic of Jeff King and his team from a couple of years ago during the Iditarod.....I am not really liking what those dogs look like......some of these dogs weigh roughly 50 lbs., they look tallish, but strong?....I don't know.....

ron2

I guess the differential question is what is meant by "proven"? For some, it is strict adherence physical structure of the AKC standards.

 For breeding "superior sled dogs" the proof is in the dog's ability. Something which is unknown about Shadow, so you really can't say one way or another if he would be an ideal canidate for a sled dog breeding program.

Thanks for posting that. I knew of a musher that uses hounds, not Sibes, not Mals, hounds. I believe he had dog coats tailor made for them when they needed it. These dogs may not look like your typical Sibe or Mal sled dog but they are in the Iditarod. Does that count as "proven" for a breeder of alaskans? Even though the Yukon Quest is a tougher race, the Iditarod does get all the press.

My discussion of Shadow's worth as sled dog stock is academic. I had him neutered over two years ago (12-07-05). Even so, when I say hook, he stops, when I say hike, he goes, when I saw haw, he turns left and when I say gee, he turns right. He is a mix of two northern breeds. Yes, Labs are a northern breed. Newfoundland and the Isle of Labrador are provinces of Canada, not Venezuela or Chile. They were bred to jump into icy, frigid water to retrieve fish net buoys or even fish and water fowl.

And you are right, a Lab may not be suitable for sled pulling. Especially an american Lab, of which many are prone to HD.

At one point, I thought of how neat it would have been to get Shadow working dog titles. But dog sledding is not big in Texas and there's not even much about dog carting.

And I didn't breed him for the some of the same reasons that many here don't breed. While I can see value in him from the perspective of a sled dog, theoretically, as you know, he is unproven, there is no market, ergo, I could not guarantee good homes for all the litter. Plus, I did not have health certs and cannot get info on his parents and their lines. And I won't contribute another litter to the shelter population. So, we did not breed for what I considered were ethical reasons, to me. And I wasn't meaning to sidetrack this discussion, either.

The ethical reasons to breed or not breed can be a good thing, a right thing. Elitism might be more the attitude of "we are better than you", which is how I was raised to understand it. The attitude is separate from the rightness or wrongness of the paradigm. And to be fair, attention to physical structure is important for the health of the dog. There are some benefits to the AKC standard. If that standard produces dogs of sound health and structure, wonderful temperment and astounding workability, hallelujah. What would make me elitist is if I thought myself as better or special because of my ethical views than others, an attitude that doesn't always bear relation to the rightness of my ethics.

So, I don't think Truley, you, or Agile are elitist. In regards to breeding ethics, I have not seen where ya'll think you are better than other people. And the ethics you present are good and right, independent of how you or anyone who disagrees with views them.

Does that make sense?

ron2

Thanks for posting that. I knew of a musher that uses hounds, not Sibes, not Mals, hounds. I believe he had dog coats tailor made for them when they needed it. These dogs may not look like your typical Sibe or Mal sled dog but they are in the Iditarod. Does that count as "proven" for a breeder of alaskans? Even though the Yukon Quest is a tougher race, the Iditarod does get all the press.

 I would rule out the dog as a great sled dog if it didn't have the proper coat for the job. That is just me though. There have been poodles who ran the Iditarod as well, so running that race alone does not make a dog an outstanding sled dog.

ron2

My discussion of Shadow's worth as sled dog stock is academic. I had him neutered over two years ago (12-07-05). Even so, when I say hook, he stops, when I say hike, he goes, when I saw haw, he turns left and when I say gee, he turns right. He is a mix of two northern breeds.

Any dog can be trained to follow directional commands, that isn't genetic and isn't proof of his ability as a sled dog. I am unsure how else I can explain this in a way that you'll understand. Many purebred Sibes, Mals and other breeds meant for sledding don't make the cut when expected to do the actual work. When they are expected to pull for miles, over any terrain with a sled behind them in any weather many dogs simply can't or won't do it. It is a matter of work ethic (or "heart" some would say) as well as physical ability and that is not something you can know about the dog until he has been tested.

ron2

t one point, I thought of how neat it would have been to get Shadow working dog titles. But dog sledding is not big in Texas and there's not even much about dog carting.

 Check out this group: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/DogsLovetoRun

AgileGSD

I am unsure how else I can explain this in a way that you'll understand.

Yes, I'm so woefully ignorant.

I've been trying to agree with you but you're going to continue trying to prove that you know so much more than I do, which may not take much.

AgileGSD

Any dog can be trained to follow directional commands, that isn't genetic and isn't proof of his ability as a sled dog.

True, and points for taking it out of context.

AgileGSD

I would rule out the dog as a great sled dog if it didn't have the proper coat for the job.

The coat doesn't make the job, by itself. Just as you later point out that the ability to heed directional commands does not imply a great sled dog or one suitable for the job.

I'm not aware of Iditarod rules that require that you use only Sibes and Mals. So, how is a dog that can run that race not suitable or proven in that job?

AgileGSD

It is a matter of work ethic (or "heart" some would say) as well as physical ability and that is not something you can know about the dog until he has been tested.

I agree. Did you know that the teams that make it to the Iditarod have already been through several "tests", shorter competitions, fast heats, other long distance races? So, how is it that a dog that makes it to that race is still unworthy?

Did you actually read the post of mine to which you have responded? Or are you just reacting on instinct because I proposed, academically, a breeding I wouldn't condone, based purely on the ability to do a job?

That is what breeders of alaskan huskies do. Out of 6 litters in a year, one or two out of each litter might make it to a team. The fastest of the bunch. The rest do not. They are "pet quality" because they couldn't run fast enough to be "proven."

I'm going to try one more time to agree with you, whether you like it or not. Shadow did not sire any litters and I will not have him sire as he has been neutered. And my ethics were the same as yours. He is a mix, unproven, with mysterious genetics and line health history. And other than learning mushing commands, he has not worked at pulling and running for miles, i.e., serious training. My point was that even though he has some of the things that could make a great sled dog, that does not mean he should sire a litter for that, even if I was a sled dog breeder, which I am not. For the very reasons of not having proven ability to work as a sled dog, which would certainly be tough to test in Texas, a moderate to warm climate with some cold winters.

Or am I ignorant because I expressed differently or offered a test case to show that what is proper breeding does not imply elitism, per se.

ron2

The ethical reasons to breed or not breed can be a good thing, a right thing. Elitism might be more the attitude of "we are better than you", which is how I was raised to understand it. The attitude is separate from the rightness or wrongness of the paradigm. And to be fair, attention to physical structure is important for the health of the dog. There are some benefits to the AKC standard. If that standard produces dogs of sound health and structure, wonderful temperment and astounding workability, hallelujah. What would make me elitist is if I thought myself as better or special because of my ethical views than others, an attitude that doesn't always bear relation to the rightness of my ethics.

AgileGSD

I would rule out the dog as a great sled dog if it didn't have the proper coat for the job.

I think that has already been shown to be incorrect....as we see Alaskan sled dogs running with very short coats......it's the speed and endurance that counts in the highly competitive races....

ron2

Yes, I'm so woefully ignorant.

I've been trying to agree with you but you're going to continue trying to prove that you know so much more than I do, which may not take much.

You are now facing some of the "elitist" attitude that several of us have been referring to!!!!  Speaking for myself I do not care if one has established "standards" for themselves as far as what their desire in a dog or what they are looking for in a breeder!  I myself have established "standards" for dogs that I would take and for breeders that I would deal with.  My established "standards" however may not be the same as what others establish for themselves.  Unlike those with the "elitist" attitude I do not feel the need to "preach", impose or insist that my standards are "right" for anyone but me!  You posted a hypothetical scenario to show why, in your opinion, it would not have been right to breed your dog even though your dog had many good qualities.  I understood your point and although I may have not agreed with all of what you stated, as far as I was concerned that was your dog and your choice so I saw no reason to argue with you!  Yet some with the "elitist" attitude seem to want to take you to task even though you were saying essentially the same thing????  Do you still wonder why I am not to thrilled with the "elitist" attitude?

Mark