The Elitist Attitude.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Marklf
    You on the other hand have attempted to dictate to the original poster and your neighbor under what circumstances they should breed their dogs! 

     

    No one is trying to "rule, control or dominate".  At best, educate the woefully ignorant.  At worst voice an unwelcome opinion.  But "control, rule, dominate"?  Do they even live in the same state?  Are they going to march round to their house and personally see to it that the dog is not bred?  This thread is reaching heights of silliness not hitherto seen...

    • Gold Top Dog

    Marklf

    That is not why I think of you as an elitist!  Nor have I seen anyone on these threads state those reasons for considering you an elitist!  No one has said that you should sponsor, condone, support or bend to anything!!!!  You on the other hand have attempted to dictate to the original poster and your neighbor under what circumstances they should breed their dogs!  So it sounds like you are the one that is attempting to make others "sponsor, codone, support or bend" to your standards!  That may not be your intent but that is the way you came across!  By coming across like that you are more likely to alienate rather then convince those that you are speaking to.

    Truley

    Your nitpicking.............................Sleep

     

    No I was attempting to explain why I think your posts make you appear "elitist".  If that is "nitpicking" to you then it appears that you really don't care why some of us think that you come across as an "elitist"! 

    Mark

     

    I never dictated anything, I offered my opinion. As for my neighbors, yes I did offer advice, but guess what, neither have bred their dogs (so far) and I am still good neighbors with them, one neighbors children come over and play here and we do things together(still!), the other is known as the "magic dog fairy" because she leaves goodies by the back door for my dog, and I her's(still!). I clip the nails of both their dogs(still!) and dog sit for them both.(still!)

    Your nitpicking for the sake of an arguement. And to be honest, yes, I don't care that you think I appear to be an elitist, it's your opinion. You have yours and I have mine. I am fine with mine and yours. To each his own.

    • Puppy

    Truley

    Your nitpicking for the sake of an arguement. And to be honest, yes, I don't care that you think I appear to be an elitist, it's your opinion. You have yours and I have mine. I am fine with mine and yours. To each his own.

    If you are so "fine" with your opinion and really don't care about the reasons that some may think of you as elitist then why did you start this thread???  And why do you continue to post on it?

    Mark

    • Puppy

    Chuffy
    No one is trying to "rule, control or dominate".  At best, educate the woefully ignorant.  At worst voice an unwelcome opinion.  But "control, rule, dominate"?  Do they even live in the same state?  Are they going to march round to their house and personally see to it that the dog is not bred?  This thread is reaching heights of silliness not hitherto seen...

    Speaking of silliness, it seems that we have gone from you claiming that I was "inventing definitions" to you now claiming that the definiition doesn't apply in this case????

    Mark

    • Gold Top Dog

    Chuffy

    Marklf
    You on the other hand have attempted to dictate to the original poster and your neighbor under what circumstances they should breed their dogs! 

     

    No one is trying to "rule, control or dominate".  At best, educate the woefully ignorant.  At worst voice an unwelcome opinion.  But "control, rule, dominate"?  Do they even live in the same state?  Are they going to march round to their house and personally see to it that the dog is not bred?  This thread is reaching heights of silliness not hitherto seen...

     I totally agree with you. This is getting silly as it seems the word "Elitism" is being twisted around and the definition seems to keep on changing for the sake of an argument.

     With that said, I love Boston Terriers. I currently own 2 pet quality Boston Terriers and 1 pet quality Rottweiler. I am not a breeder but I am interested in acquiring a show quality female Boston Terrier with the intentions of showing in conformation, participating in Rally(as I already participate in that with one of my Bostons) and perhaps breeding down the road. I will not breed my bitch unless she has acquired a champion title and has passed OFA, CERF and BAER. I will breed her to a male who also has a champion title, has passed OFA, CERF, BAER and has a nice pedigree and will hopefully be a positive influence on my bitches faults and will hopefully accentuate her strengths. I do not agree with breeding dogs solely for pets as millions of them are sitting in shelters and rescues. I do not buy from irresponsible breeders because I don't agree with irresponsible breeding. If a person came to me for breeding advice I would give them the same advice that I would follow myself. They are free to take it or leave it but I will NOT change the way I feel in order to spare someones feelings or justify irresponsible actions.

    On a side note, based on speaking with Jaime(Amstaffy) on these boards for a few years, I would say even she would give advice based on how she does things to someone who inquired about breeding their dogs.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Marklf

    Chuffy
    No one is trying to "rule, control or dominate".  At best, educate the woefully ignorant.  At worst voice an unwelcome opinion.  But "control, rule, dominate"?  Do they even live in the same state?  Are they going to march round to their house and personally see to it that the dog is not bred?  This thread is reaching heights of silliness not hitherto seen...

    Speaking of silliness, it seems that we have gone from you claiming that I was "inventing definitions" to you now claiming that the definiition doesn't apply in this case????

    Mark

     

    Honestly, I have never heard te term used in that context.  So yeah, I thought you were making it up.  Even so, it's obvious from the original post and resulting thread that the word "elitist" was not intended in the context you are labouring under.

    That said, I'm an elitist.  I want a world of healthy, temperamentally sound dogs.  When breeding practises go downhill, the general health and well being of the dog population does likewise.

    Look at labs.  Look at pitts.  Look at any breed that suddenly becomes popular and has the world and his wife breeding any old dog to any old bitch.  I want to support breeders who breed the best, to keep our canine friends healthy and sound.  When I buy a pup, I want the best available to me.  I want him to have had the best start in life.  That makes me an elitist as far as I'm concerned.  And it's nothing to be ashamed of.  I wish more dog owners were elitists.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Marklf

    Truley

    Your nitpicking for the sake of an arguement. And to be honest, yes, I don't care that you think I appear to be an elitist, it's your opinion. You have yours and I have mine. I am fine with mine and yours. To each his own.

    If you are so "fine" with your opinion and really don't care about the reasons that some may think of you as elitist then why did you start this thread???  And why do you continue to post on it?

    Mark

    Because I can.

    • Gold Top Dog

    You haven't alienated me, Truley.

    I can see some points. For example, in a well-bred litter, there will be variations in color and size that will fault against the standard. These dogs are then deemed pet quality. They might be wonderful in any job assigned, could compete in the contests and win, have a wonderful disposition, love on children and take all the ear pulling galore, and be sweet around other dogs, etc., and are deemed unsuitable to breed because they are an inch too tall or 8 oz over standard weight limit. And that has to do with what is considered proper breeding, now. Even I violate my own standard. Shadow is a mix of Siberian Husky and Lab. I currently do not have a dog cart or dog sled, so we are not working the job he was originally bred for. I do not hunt, so he doesn't get to hunt every day with me. Nor do I fish in the oceans with nets, which is what the Lab was originally bred for, to jump into the frigid waters of the northern seas around Newfoundland and the Island of Labrador to retrieve net buoys. That's why Labs have waterproof skin and an otter like tail. He is a pet more than he is a working dog.

    There's an interesting dichotomy. What makes a good working dog is not what always makes an easy pet. And, genetically, there is a price to pay when one concentrates on a few traits. I think it was wise to state that there wil be faults with even the best of breeding. But it doesn't have to stop us from pursuing perfection.

    But, with most people not in the organized competitions and shows, how important is it that the height of your male Sibes not exceed 24 inches? Is it more important that they receive training well and easy? Their job has become to fit into the family group and not eat the cats. The original breeding did not consider genetics. A winning dog, so to speak, wanted to run for hours in front and still be good around the kids, as they often lived with the family, or burrowed out in the snow at - 70 F. Color, height, and weight were not the primary consideration. However, what is now considered the standard, was a good combination considering the food resources and demands of life in far northeastern Siberia. But there would still be some variation in the physical dimensions, even then. So, were the chuckchi ethical? The breed was fairly hearty and healthy. And they didn't select by preemptive surgery. There were sometimes drastic measures.

    So, as was stated elsewhere, if the desire is to breed show-worthy but only a few statistically have the genetic chance to possess all the qualities to be allowed to breed, then the general affect is that the majority of breeding is producing pet quality. But pet quality does not mean that the dog makes a good pet. Pet quality means that they are not show-worthy and show worthy is defined by the arbitrary standards defined by a set of dimensions agreed upon by a group of people.

    If I were a chukchi and were to breed superior sled dogs, Shadow would have been an excellet source. Big, fast, strong, runs like the wind and loves doing it. A bit independent but biddable enough to train. He has the aspects of a great sled dog but is faulted against the AKC standards in both Sibe and Lab breeds, not to mention being a mutt, or mix of two breeds, which is not recognized by the AKC.

    Maybe I am elitist in liking the ancient breeds. And things have changed, maybe. Are many dogs working dogs? Or are they members of a family group where social cohesion is even more important than the job of their breed?

    I can see some of DPU's point from his perspective. He's not training dogs to hunt, pull, or retrieve. He is acclimating them to life with human families. So, how well they hunt is secondary to how well they get along with others. With the majority of dogs being "pet quality" and the majority of dogs simply needing a good home to be in, is he then concentrating on the right thing, regardless of how you find is attitude to be, or not to be? No, I don't agree with the notion that people should be breeding just because and I don't see evidence of the mythical family that can breed well and be responsible but, how many guidelines were in place when Man started breeding dogs so long ago. Or even 300 years ago, when some of the modern breeds arose? In fact, I read somewhere that many of the breed standards were orginally started, not to define the breed for its own good, but to set apart the dogs owned by the aristocracy as opposed to those owned by the working class and all those not gifted with the divine right of Kings and landed gentry.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    YET ANOTHER MOD WARNING.

    No one is in a position to question any member here on why or when they choose to post to any topic or start any thread...aside from Moderation or Admin. Please do not moderate threads...participate and enjoy them or participate and don't enjoy them...but please have respect for members who ALSO post. If you cannot do so...be prepared to hear from Admin.

    Thanks.

    • Puppy

    meilani
    I totally agree with you. This is getting silly as it seems the word "Elitism" is being twisted around and the definition seems to keep on changing for the sake of an argument.

    I agree there are some that are trying to change the definition of "elitism"!  Those that are trying to claim that "elitism" only means that they have established personal standard for their own breeding practices are attempting to change the definition of the word.  As I have stated before establishing a standard for ones self does not make a person an elitist!  What makes a person an elitist is when they consider their personal standard to be the one that all others must follow.  When others do not follow the their personal standard an "elitist" will then resort to deragatory lables such as "BYB", "irresponsible"...in an attempt to control, rule or dominate the issue.

    Mark

    • Gold Top Dog

    ron2
    If I were a chukchi and were to breed superior sled dogs, Shadow would have been an excellet source. Big, fast, strong, runs like the wind and loves doing it. A bit independent but biddable enough to train. He has the aspects of a great sled dog but is faulted against the AKC standards in both Sibe and Lab breeds, not to mention being a mutt, or mix of two breeds, which is not recognized by the AKC.

     

    Shadow would not have been a good dog to breed for what the Chukchi needed....based on coat and the heavy bone structure......just like Ronin would not have been that good, his bone structure is too heavy, bad on joints.....

    • Puppy

    Truley

    Because I can.

    In re-reading those questions I see now that I did not phrase them very well and that they appear to be questioning your right to make those posts for that I apologize!!!!!  I should not have worded my question in that manner!!!  I was not meaning to imply that you should not have started this thread or continued posting on this thread!  I was attempting (albiet poorly) to learn from you just what expectaions you had from those like me that may not agree with your position.  My reason for asking was NOT to question your right to post but rather to see if there was any "middle ground" on this issue we could find so that perhaps we could at least come to understand each others percpective.  Again I apologize for posting those questions in that manner and will attempt to do a better job in my communications with you in the future!

    Mark

    • Gold Top Dog

    Marklf

    Truley

    Because I can.

    In re-reading those questions I see now that I did not phrase them very well and that they appear to be questioning your right to make those posts for that I apologize!!!!!  I should not have worded my question in that manner!!!  I was not meaning to imply that you should not have started this thread or continued posting on this thread!  I was attempting (albiet poorly) to learn from you just what expectaions you had from those like me that may not agree with your position.  My reason for asking was NOT to question your right to post but rather to see if there was any "middle ground" on this issue we could find so that perhaps we could at least come to understand each others percpective.  Again I apologize for posting those questions in that manner and will attempt to do a better job in my communications with you in the future!

    Mark

    That's fine. I took no offense.

    As for the bolded parts. In regards to expectations and the general you? Well, if you(general) want to breed, and it falls outside of my personal standards, don't expect me to support you(general). I just cannot do it. And I did not feel it was right for someone(not you) to label me an elitist because I won't. If you look at that from my view point, it is no different than was I am labeled for. What I mean by that is, so it was ok for this someone to label me for my standards, twist the meaning it was intended in, and it is ok? How does that make the person(s) who labeled me any different? Why am I the elitist and they are not?

    As for middle ground? I have no answer, I certainly have not seen anything added to change my mind, how about you?

    • Puppy

    Truley

    As for the bolded parts. In regards to expectations and the general you? Well, if you(general) want to breed, and it falls outside of my personal standards, don't expect me to support you(general). I just cannot do it. And I did not feel it was right for someone(not you) to label me an elitist because I won't. If you look at that from my view point, it is no different than was I am labeled for. What I mean by that is, so it was ok for this someone to label me for my standards, twist the meaning it was intended in, and it is ok? How does that make the person(s) who labeled me any different? Why am I the elitist and they are not?

    I cannot answer for any other poster or explain why a poster "labeled" you. I think that other posters can explain their posts for themselves.  I was attempting to explain why, to me, you came across as elitist! 

    Truley

    As for middle ground? I have no answer, I certainly have not seen anything added to change my mind, how about you?

    As I stated I am only attempting to gain a better understanding of your perspective and to give you a better understanding of my perspective.  I am not attempting to change your mind and I do not think that you will change mine!  I do think that I have gained some better understanding of you point of view although I will admit there is much of it I disagree with and I am sure there is still some of it I just do not grasp yet.  I hope that you may have a better understanding of my point of view but that in no way means that I expect you to agree with it!

    Mark                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nickpicking dog owner and proud of itBig Smile

    • Gold Top Dog

    Marklf
    I agree there are some that are trying to change the definition of "elitism"! 

     

    I agree! Smile 

    Marklf
    What makes a person an elitist is when they consider their personal standard to be the one that all others must follow. 

     

    And where does that meaning come from? If you look up the definition of the word (elite, elitism), I don't think you'll find anything about people forcing their standards on others.

    According to M/W, Elite:

    the best of a class
    the socially superior part of society
    a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence

    There's nothing here about an elitist considering their personal standard to be the one that all others must follow.

    And besides, if someone doesn't follow certain standards and they get called a name (like byb or irresponsible), well, boo-hoo. It's a free country. If a person doesn't want to be called such names, perhaps they should act more responsibly.