The Elitist Attitude.

sillysally

Wrong.  The difference between the confo ring and performance sports is that in performance the dog is demonstrating its skill stemming from natural abilities. 

How does that make my statement that " agility, schutzhund, flyball, dock jumping.....are all show rings" wrong????

sillysally

Actually, as far as labs go, I don't know of anyone who is breeding specifically for dock dogs.  You really don't have to look much further than hunting/field trial lines for a good candidate.

They may not be breeding labs for that sport but some have mentioned those sports as being a method showing that the dog is "proven" and therefore eligible for breeding.

sillysally

My question regarding what it is about the lab standard that would cause it to be dumped in shelters remains unanswered....... 

I am not sure what your question was I must have missed it.  Please repost it and I will do my best to answer it.

Mark

Well I for one AM an eltitist on many levels.

I own pure bred dogs, not mixed bred dogs. I own American Staffordshire Terriers EXCLUSIVELY not American Pit Bull Terriers.

I will cull from the gene pool by way of spay/neuter any dog I produce that does not fit the breed standard for type/temperment or health

There may be a 12 step program, I'm not interested!!

amstaffy

Well I for one AM an eltitist on many levels.

I own pure bred dogs, not mixed bred dogs. I own American Staffordshire Terriers EXCLUSIVELY not American Pit Bull Terriers.

I will cull from the gene pool by way of spay/neuter any dog I produce that does not fit the breed standard for type/temperment or health

 

There may be a 12 step program, I'm not interested!!

Sorry but what you described in that post does not rise to the level of "elitist".  What you described sounds more like a person that has established standards for him/herself and while those standards may be high they do not meet elitist status because there was nothing in your post that put down, insulted or belittled those that do not hold to your personal standard!  I have nothing against people establishing a standard for themselves and for those they will do business with, in fact I expect everyone to do that!  What I object to is when someone attempts to impugn people that they disagree with by applying derogatory labels and looking down their nose at anyone that does not meet their standard.  That is what, IMHO, defines an elitist.  As I have mentioned before that type of elitist behavior does nothing to help their cause.  Instead it just turns people off so they are less likely to support the overall goal of the elitist!

Mark

Marklf

Pwca

I'm not sure how excessively large, soft-tempered, incapable of serious work, less biddable, heavily coated dogs constitute "What's good about the original GSD"

As opposed to the deformed less intelligent dogs being bred for the conformation ring or the aggressive dogs being bred for schutzhund ring or the smaller GSDs being bred for the agility ring? 

Mark

 

 Who is breeding small GSDs for agility? It is a bit off to assume that schutzhund dogs are bred for "aggression". Schutzhund was actually created to test German Shepherd's working ability, soundness, instincts and biddability.

Marklf

Sorry but what you described in that post does not rise to the level of "elitist".  What you described sounds more like a person that has established standards for him/herself and while those standards may be high they do not meet elitist status because there was nothing in your post that put down, insulted or belittled those that do not hold to your personal standard!  I have nothing against people establishing a standard for themselves and for those they will do business with, in fact I expect everyone to do that!  What I object to is when someone attempts to impugn people that they disagree with by applying derogatory labels and looking down their nose at anyone that does not meet their standard.  That is what, IMHO, defines an elitist.  As I have mentioned before that type of elitist behavior does nothing to help their cause.  Instead it just turns people off so they are less likely to support the overall goal of the elitist!

Mark

Ohhhhh really?? My first post:

As for breeding, unless your dog is a proven winner and has something to contribute to the breed standard and is not going to be bred to a dog of the same breed with the same standards, forget it, they should not be bred, period.

That is my standard. And this was the reply:

The simple answer to the OP question is that the "people" have an elitist attitude, one of the 7 deadly sins.  Those that breed as a hobby, good for them.  For those that want a one time experience or a continuation of what they consider a great dog, good for them too.

I then replied:

I don't have an elitist attitude, far from it. But unless you breeding something "bad" out to put something "better" in, why should you breed?

I have a neighbor who has a chi, and her brother has a fox terrier. Just pets, but they plan to breed them, why you ask? Well because when they were kids there favorite dog was a mix of the 2, oh yes, that is a good reason to breed.

Or, how about my other neighbor, they went to the HS to get a puppy, but did not, why? cause the husband did not think they had the right to "fix" his dog, what if they wanted to have puppies? They have a dog they got a flea market, and you know what, it is alone 80% of the day, stays in a crate in the house overnight, out in bad weather, they spend no training or quaility time with it.

I cannot support that kind of breeding. The problem is everyone is in love with puppies, but forget they grow up and lose those puppy ways.

I then got:

Sure you do because the extent of your involvement with the two live example you provided is to make a condescending assumptions and judgements.  If you were really true to your cause you would be more involved, even to the point actually helping them and educating them along the way.  I think the experience of having your favorites dogs mate is very aluring but after one experience, it does not always lead to a 2nd experience.   

If you can't support that kind of breeding, then YOU don't do it. 

So, I am to support something I don't believe in?  I never yelled at anyone, never raked anyone over the coals about their goals in breeding. I am to lie and tell them I think it is just dandy to go ahead and what a great idea?

Sorry, no can do.

ETA: After that is when I started this thread, me thinks you need to reread it.

Truley

Ohhhhh really?? My first post:

As for breeding, unless your dog is a proven winner and has something to contribute to the breed standard and is not going to be bred to a dog of the same breed with the same standards, forget it, they should not be bred, period.

From the post by Amstaffy (emphises added to both quotes by me);

"I own pure bred dogs, not mixed bred dogs. I own American Staffordshire Terriers EXCLUSIVELY not American Pit Bull Terriers.

I will cull from the gene pool by way of spay/neuter any dog I produce that does not fit the breed standard for type/temperment or health"

Notice that amstaffy is stating what he/she will do with his/her own dogs while you are telling someelse what they should or should not do with their dogs!  That IMHO is the difference between someone (amstaffy) that is explaining their own personal standards and someone (you) comming across as an "elitist" by telling others what they should be doing!

Truley

That is my standard. And this was the reply:

None of the replies that you just posted came from me do you really expect me to answer for other peoples quotes?

Truley

So, I am to support something I don't believe in?  I never yelled at anyone, never raked anyone over the coals about their goals in breeding. I am to lie and tell them I think it is just dandy to go ahead and what a great idea?

I have never stated, nor have I seen anyone else on this thread state, that you should have to support something that you do not believe in or that you should lie to anyone!  When you come across as telling people what they should or shouldn't do based on your personal standards you appear "elitist" and that has a tendency to drive people away from your position.  There are ways to communicate your views without coming across as an  "elitist" and without supporting that which you do not believe in or lying!

Mark

you appear "elitist"

What's that old saying again?  Ah yes...appearances can be deceiving.

You have to open the book before you judge it you know. 

Xeph

you appear "elitist"

What's that old saying again?  Ah yes...appearances can be deceiving.

You have to open the book before you judge it you know. 

And when you quote three words taken out of a sentence you will lose the meaning and intent of the sentence.

Mark

Nothing out of context about it.

Even if I'd selected the whole sentence "You appear" would still be the strongest thing about it
 

Marklf

I have nothing against people establishing a standard for themselves and for those they will do business with,

Eh?

That's all the so-called elitists have done.  "I won't do X Y Z because it is irresponsible/unethical/whatever".  Or,  "I won't BUY from a breeder who does X Y Z because I think that is irresponsible".  So where's the argument again??

Marklf

Truley

Ohhhhh really?? My first post:

As for breeding, unless your dog is a proven winner and has something to contribute to the breed standard and is not going to be bred to a dog of the same breed with the same standards, forget it, they should not be bred, period.

From the post by Amstaffy (emphises added to both quotes by me);

"I own pure bred dogs, not mixed bred dogs. I own American Staffordshire Terriers EXCLUSIVELY not American Pit Bull Terriers.

I will cull from the gene pool by way of spay/neuter any dog I produce that does not fit the breed standard for type/temperment or health"

Notice that amstaffy is stating what he/she will do with his/her own dogs while you are telling someelse what they should or should not do with their dogs!  That IMHO is the difference between someone (amstaffy) that is explaining their own personal standards and someone (you) comming across as an "elitist" by telling others what they should be doing!

Truley

That is my standard. And this was the reply:

None of the replies that you just posted came from me do you really expect me to answer for other peoples quotes?

Truley

So, I am to support something I don't believe in?  I never yelled at anyone, never raked anyone over the coals about their goals in breeding. I am to lie and tell them I think it is just dandy to go ahead and what a great idea?

I have never stated, nor have I seen anyone else on this thread state, that you should have to support something that you do not believe in or that you should lie to anyone!  When you come across as telling people what they should or shouldn't do based on your personal standards you appear "elitist" and that has a tendency to drive people away from your position.  There are ways to communicate your views without coming across as an  "elitist" and without supporting that which you do not believe in or lying!

Mark

You have invented your own definition of elitist here, just to have something to argue about.  Since when has the word meant trying to bend others to your own standards?   

Marklf

I have never stated, nor have I seen anyone else on this thread state, that you should have to support something that you do not believe in or that you should lie to anyone!  When you come across as telling people what they should or shouldn't do based on your personal standards you appear "elitist" and that has a tendency to drive people away from your position.  There are ways to communicate your views without coming across as an  "elitist" and without supporting that which you do not believe in or lying!

Mark

Once again, MY first post!

I have been accused of being an elitist, because I refuse to sponsor, condone, support or bend to the way of thinking that breeding a favorite pet, mixed breeds, or unproven dogs is ok.

Fine with me. Here is the thread that started it all.

http://community.dog.com/forums/t/79125.aspx

I love a breed that comes with a gazillion health hazards, the German Shepherd. I now have a dog from a responsible, respectable breeder, but even with that I was still taking a roll of the dice, I just wanted the odds stacked in favor. My last dog was also from a breeder and was healthy. Outside of a food allergy and a flea allergy, so far so good. But the dogs I had before this were mix's.

We tried rescue for almost a year before Babe passed away, we stopped looking because we felt that above all she needed our total commitment, and I was tired of fighting an uphill battle. My sister and mother purchased Kord for us. I still want a second dog and will try with all my heart for a rescue dog when the time is right, or even a pound puppy. I am not sure the rescues in this area are for us, but we will look. I will not foster, why? Because I know I will become to attached, I do not have the space, and frankly I don't think I have enough talent or knowledge to support behavioral issue's that some fosters come with.

With that said, I will not support the breeder who has a litter to sell just because they think mom and dad dog are great. I cannot support breeding mixed toy breeds to sell for thousands of dollars because they are fashionable, I cannot support an organization that has a foster who thinks that people should be allowed to breed "just because", these groups spend thousands of dollars rehabilitation dogs to go to forever homes, and I find it incomprehensible that they would allow this.

I will and do support my local HS. I drop off needed items when we can afford the extra. I take training classes there when we can and they are what we need. I attend events they sponsor. I do what I can with the time I have and pray that it helps at least one dog or cat left homeless.

I have nothing against breeders that are trying to improve breed(s) issues, I have nothing against White German shepherds, had one as a child. I do not think it is right of the parent group to exclude them due to color, but I know there are some responsible breeders who are trying to change that. The goldenoodle? I understand where they are trying to go, and I do believe there is a group working very hard to establish it as a breed. I have no trouble with that either.

What I have a problem with is JPQ breeding first generation puppies to sell, and continuing to do so without thinking of more than the all mighty dollar. I have a problem with one neighbor who is thinking of breeding her dog to get a puppy that is a carbon copy of her favorite as a child, I have talked until I'm blue in the face, I have used charm, sugar and facts, but outside of stealing her dog my hands are tied. I REFUSE to support her in this, but I will still watch him for her should she need me to, I cut his little nails when she asks, I play with him anytime he is out and I see him, I leave treats and toys and love on the little bugger. But I cannot, will not, never ever, support her should she breed him.

If that makes me an Elitist, so be it.

Whew! The I'S have it!

Your nitpicking.............................

Chuffy

You have invented your own definition of elitist here, just to have something to argue about.  Since when has the word meant trying to bend others to your own standards?   

Marflf is correct and I also do not consider someone an Elitist if they influence others by their example.

Chuffy

You have invented your own definition of elitist here, just to have something to argue about.  Since when has the word meant trying to bend others to your own standards?   

From the American Heritage Dictionary; (emphises add by me)

"e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism n.  

1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
2. 1. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
   2. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class. "

So no I did not invent anything!

Mark

Truley

I have been accused of being an elitist, because I refuse to sponsor, condone, support or bend to the way of thinking that breeding a favorite pet, mixed breeds, or unproven dogs is ok.

That is not why I think of you as an elitist!  Nor have I seen anyone on these threads state those reasons for considering you an elitist!  No one has said that you should sponsor, condone, support or bend to anything!!!!  You on the other hand have attempted to dictate to the original poster and your neighbor under what circumstances they should breed their dogs!  So it sounds like you are the one that is attempting to make others "sponsor, codone, support or bend" to your standards!  That may not be your intent but that is the way you came across!  By coming across like that you are more likely to alienate rather then convince those that you are speaking to.

Truley

Your nitpicking.............................

 

No I was attempting to explain why I think your posts make you appear "elitist".  If that is "nitpicking" to you then it appears that you really don't care why some of us think that you come across as an "elitist"! 

Mark