The Elitist Attitude.

Xeph

All that hybrid vigor stuff is absolute bologna!
 

 My Dobe mix was hpyothyroid, which is a widespread health issue in Dobes. What happened to his hybrid vigor? Or my friend's GSD mix that had to be PTS at 6 due to uncontrollable seziures? Or my 4H member's Doxie mix who died young due to a paralyzing back problem? Or the countless mixes I know who have or had HD? I have one in CGC class right now a known Golden/Mastiff mix, only 10 months old and already has hip dysplasia symptoms (doesn't like to sit, has a hard time getting up from a down). I also see lots of unhealthy mixed breeds at the grooming shop. Mixed breed dogs are not really "hybrids", which likely explains the lack of hybrid vigor in them. Coydogs or Wolf hybrids would be more likely to have hybrid vigor, not that I suggest most people obtain such canines.

Xeph

If I thought for one minute that I could find the right bitch, the right homes, and the right timing to breed Mouse and keep a puppy back and that he had something to offer the breed besides his work ethic, drive, and temperament, I'd consider it.

But right now I don't think I have the right tools to breed him ethically and responsibly, as much as I wanted to use him for my kennel.

I go back and forth all the time, and ultimately my answer is always, "It's selfish to breed him...there are better dogs."

Not an easy decision, but one that had to be made.

 Thanks for answering my questions :) He is a nice looking boy for sure. Is he all Amlines? He looks quite like a German showline male in his build/structure. I can understand the reasons for not wanting to breed him but on the other hand, no dog is perfect and improvement can be and hopefully is made in each generation. I know a male Belgian who is finished and an overall nice dog but has a pretty icky front. He has been bred quite a few times now and his puppies all tend to have better fronts than he does and none that I have seen have fronts as bad as his. I would consider using him if he was a good match for one of my girls because I think overall he has a lot to offer - temperament, good structure other than the front, nice outline and he seems to be producing really nice, intelligent puppies.

 Breeding isn't and can't be about only breeding "the best to the best" because there are very few truly outstanding dogs in any breed. "There are better dogs" can be said about any dog from someone's pet to a big winning show dog. IMO It isn't at all selfish to want to breed a dog who overall has a lot going for them just because there there are some dogs who are better than them. If you are waiting to start a breeding program until you have a dog who is better than any other dog in all ways, it may never happen as those dogs are few and far between if they actually exsist at all.

polarexpress

corvus

The difference between getting a BYB mixed breed puppy and a shelter dog is in the temperament and meeting the mother. As far as I'm concerned, the more info the better.

Choose whatever you like, but I wanted to point out for lurkers  that with an adult dog what you see is what you get for size, temperment, acvtivity level, desire to please people, health---the whole enchilada. In other words, everything that is a guessing game with a puppy. With a mixed-breed pup you can meet the mom but that isn't the end-all and be-all of the pup's genes.

Not true at all.  My in-laws adopted an adult dog from a shelter with what seemed to be a wonderful, friendly temperment.  A few weeks later the dog had to be put down  because it had brutally attacked and bitten their 21 year old daughter (went right for her face and she is still physically scarred and disfigured 15 years later).  And how can you know what health problems will crop up down the line just because the dog is healthy at the moment it is adopted?

Is he all Amlines? He looks quite like a German showline male in his build/structure.

3/4 West German, 1/4 American 

http://www.fluffyrat.net/wildfyre/StraussCollection/StraussPed1.htm

There's his pedigree if you want to look at it :-)

I didn't want to purchase an Amline dog at the time I bought him, as I wanted something drivey, and I was unable to locate it in the American dogs. 

I think because the majority of the serious health issues (epilepsy, HD, ED, MegaE, DM, EPI, Heart problems, Thyroid Problems, etc...) will pop up before/around two years of age.  My mix had his first epileptic seizures around 1 year of age - though I think his epilepsy might have more to do with mental stress and a Taurine deficiency than anything else.

I personally wouldnt purchase a pet dog from anywhere but the shelter.  I can understand purchasing a dog from a breeder for a breeding prospect and things not working out and that dog turning into a pet...but for me, personally..if I am going to get a pet the dog is probably going to be adopted because I think that with research and time spent at the shelters you can find that perfect dog - and personally, after what I know now I think rescuing should be as well thought out as purchasing a pup from a breeder....go to shelters...spend time over a week or two or three with the dog, and when you know it's right take them home.

Jay was very spontaneous for us - found him on petfinder.com and then went to get him - and yes he has some serious health issues.  However I would never - ever in a million years have gotten a BYB dog over him if I could do it all over again.  The rescues in my life do have their health problems...but what they have is pitiance next to what they have done for my family members and myself.  I'd do it all over again - and will when I am ready for a pet dog again in the future.

I'd much rather support a mixed rescue dog that purchase an oops mix - yeah...sure you can meet the mother...but what of the sire?  What of the mother's health?  And frankly I just dont like it myself...it's not something I personally want to support.  A personal choice again...and not something I would really judge others for doing - but give me a rescue any day.

Xeph - that dog's head is to die for! 

 ~Cate

Xeph - that dog's head is to die for!

Hee xD  Thanks.  It's my favorite physical feature of the Mouse.  It's also the part of him that gets the most comments, lol

"His head is HUGE!" 

jenns

Not true at all.  My in-laws adopted an adult dog from a shelter with what seemed to be a wonderful, friendly temperment.  A few weeks later the dog had to be put down  because it had brutally attacked and bitten their 21 year old daughter (went right for her face and she is still physically scarred and disfigured 15 years later).  And how can you know what health problems will crop up down the line just because the dog is healthy at the moment it is adopted?

 Trainers call this the "honeymoon period" - people adopt an adult dog, dog is a bit subdued in his new environment with new people, people think the dog is perfect and "why would anyone not want him" and within a couple weeks to a couple months the dog finally feels at home enough to act "normal". This doesn't always go as described above of course but it is very typical of dogs in new environments. It is hard to accurately evaluate a dog in a shelter situation, as they may or may not be acting typical of what they are. Our corgi doesn't act the way he did in the shelter - he was very friendly and outgoing in the shelter but is actually pretty aloof with strangers in normal life.

lol - I'm not gonna lie - I am a big head girl...I love(lovelovelovelove) big (proportionally big) heads!!  I like them even better when they have big strong necks and nice solid toplines and good functional rears :p

I think I'm in love now! (shhhh...dont tell my boyfriend)

~Cate

polarexpress

Choose whatever you like, but I wanted to point out for lurkers  that with an adult dog what you see is what you get for size, temperment, acvtivity level, desire to please people, health---the whole enchilada. In other words, everything that is a guessing game with a puppy.

 

 

No. That is the myth. It took months for Chloe to show her real personality after she came home from the shelter, and it took 2 years for her peaceful relationship with Penny to deteriorate into a series of vicious attacks that nearly killed my dog and injured my mother. Long enough to fall in love with her and have our hearts broken when we realised she was a compromise to everyone's safety in the house. And there was no telling from looking at her in the shelter that she had no bite inhibition. What you see is NOT what you get with an adult shelter dog.

And things like HD is why "responsible breeder" is indeed at the top of my list for places to get a dog. I never said mixed breeds were safe from inherited health problems. Just that in my experience they were a lot healthier than purebreds. My experience is always going to drive my choices.

And yes, I am well aware that mothers aren't everything, but seeing mum and the environment the pup was brought up in is a hell of a lot better than not seeing either in my books.

Again, let me repeat myself. I know that nothing is fool proof. We got a dog a few years ago with a gorgeous mum and a gorgeous dad and a seemingly decent environment and he turned out to have a screw loose. He was at least healthy, though, which is more than can be said for Pyry, who came from the same father (probably). We've learnt our lesson from Pyry. 

ETA, Geez. I hereby declare that Australian dogs are generally healthier than American dogs. I'm hoping it never gets as bad as it seems to be over there, but my hopes are not high with pet stores charging in excess of $700 for mixed breed puppies. I think even Jill cost more than Penny did. She has been healthier so far, though. Perhaps it is as bad and I just haven't seen evidence of it yet.

Xeph

But right now I don't think I have the right tools to breed him ethically and responsibly, as much as I wanted to use him for my kennel.

I go back and forth all the time, and ultimately my answer is always, "It's selfish to breed him...there are better dogs."

Not an easy decision, but one that had to be made.

     Wow. That is one helluva striking GSD

     While I can certainly understand and respect your decisions for not breeding him, just wanted to offer my 2 cents to the issue, lol. Personally, I don't allow others in the breed or "pet people" who want a pup to dictate who I breed or who gets bred to whom. I value constructive criticism, but ultimately, we must be the ones to decide exactly what it is we want from our breeding program, where we want to take the breed, what "mark" we wish to leave upon it. Faulty dogs are culls, plain & simple. Yet we can never expect a dog to be faultless - or even near faultless. Our foundations dogs & bitches need to be as near faultless as possible, though what they produce is so much more valuable than what they are themselves. All dogs have a certain amount of genetic flaws, if I'm remembering correctly, 7% of the genetic makeup is going to contain some type of flaw. This can range from bad fronts to bad bites, to faulty temperament, or a minor recessive health issue to several dominant health issues to poor pigmentation, etc. From these flaws, we must pick the lesser ones. I prefer a longer back or snippier muzzle than elilepsy or bad hips. We may prefer another dog's front, yet thtat does not make that other dog inherently better. It's going to be something. I'll take shoddy front over a stud that passed on inguinal hernias or erratic temperament anyday! My foundation bitch has a similar problem. In show lines, fronts, short backs, full muzzles are moderately improtant. Well, my foundation bitch has an overly long back, even by field standards, lacks chest to the point it does marr the front gait, and is hare footed The latter a mortal sin in the show world. I'd taken her to puppy classes as I always had the "dual purpose" hound in mind, and originally wanted to acquire a championship or at least points towards it on her. I was told at these classes not to breed her because she was just too long, lacked chest. She also had a soft temperament. So I fell into the trap of believing that we would spay Heidi and find something better. After all, we could do much better, conformation wise and acquire a bitch with less faults. But to do that would be to ignore all the positive attributes she offered, that may not be easily found elsewhere, and could be worth it's weight in gold in a long term breeding program. Those main qualities were uncannily robust genetic health & hardiness. She has not produced one single, solitary health issue to date. We've even bred her back to her son, and no genetic issues whatsoever. Her pups are also producing this health as well. She also throws better conformation than she herself has. Bred to a short backed male, she gives us shorter backed pups with great fronts. My stud dog out of her has one of the best fronts I've ever seen in field lines, and not one pup out of her 3 litters so far has her poor front or that akward front gait. If I could clone her, I would, she is that good of a producer. 

     Also, this same bitch produces high energy, driven pups. They are not for most families looking for a Beagle, and we do turn quite a few families away who we would probably approve for a pup out of another bitch. I do have people who want a Heidi pup, but I won't sell them one, as I know it would be too much dog for their lifestyle. Her pups go to hunting homes or to very active families. Don't breed for other people, breed for yourself, and that is when you'll have the most fulfilling breeding program. If there are people who want pups out of your dogs but aren't right for the breed, so be it. They don't get one. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater and withold breeding a good dog because average pet people wouldn't be a good fit or others in the breed might cirticize. Otherwise, breed pet dogs that have no work ethic at all.

     NOT trying to tell you how you should make your breeding decisions, just my personal take on the issue. If you honestly feel he's very faulty and not something you want from your breeding program, that's your decision alone. I'm very much a GSD person though and maybe one day when I have more property will get back into them. I had a beautiful working/show cross but that dog was stuck on overdrive 24/7 If I ever get back into the breed, I think that finding a competant one with an "off" switch would be the most valuable trait of all! JMHO ...
    

I agree completely.  I looked at shelters and rescues for over a year before finding my mixed breed dog.  I am very happy with his temperment.  He is a beautiful shepherd/lab mix.  No dog is perfect but so far he is what I wanted.  Now on the other side of the coin.  I recently took in a young, crazy black Lab who was scheduled to die.  I was not looking for a dog but since Labs have been my breed in the past I just couldn't let this girl die.  She may not work out for us, but I will find a new home for her if we don't keep her.  I guess my point is that we all have different criteria for choosing certain dogs and sometimes it's just an emotional decision.  I do believe if you adopt a dog and it doesn't work out for whatever reason you should make every effort to find the right home.  I see so many dogs in no kill shelters that are un-adoptable because they have severe separation anxiety from being adopted out and returned again and again!  These dogs IMO should be put to sleep to make room for adoptable dogs.  Off subject, sorry but that is a major issue for me and no kill shelters in my area.

Wow. That is one helluva striking GSD

Thanks ^_^ I also find him quite fetching 

I will admit, sometimes I consider at least collecting on him "for later".  I may not own a bitch until well after his breeding prime, if he's not gone by then, and I don't see anybody that'll be knocking down my door to breed to him other than people who "just want puppies", which isn't good enough. 

HoundMusic

Faulty dogs are culls, plain & simple. Yet we can never expect a dog to be faultless - or even near faultless.

Can this be briefly explained further?  Do dog breeding professionals, dog fanciers, and clubs establish the criteria as to when this is done?  Is it part of the ethics codes?

 For some breeds it is part of the ethics codes, for others, not.

In this day and age, cull does not necessarily mean death.  It simply means removing from the gene pool.  This can be done through euthanasia, but in America, our way of culling is a simple spay or neuter.
 

Xeph

 For some breeds it is part of the ethics codes, for others, not.

In this day and age, cull does not necessarily mean death.  It simply means removing from the gene pool.  This can be done through euthanasia, but in America, our way of culling is a simple spay or neuter.
 

I all depends on the reason. In my breed if a certain strain happens to be man biters they are culled-put to death immediately......well at least in the old days they were and rightly so. No dog of such power should be a man biter. Thats the differnece between old pit bulls and the new monsters being bred today