The Elitist Attitude.

DPU

I am just so puzzled by all of this.  It seems to me that in order to get  the purebreds of today with their standards maintained by ethical and "reputable" breeders, someone had to be unethical along the way. E.g. mixed breeding in order to get the Great Dane of today.

 And many breeders of yesteryear would be at risk of being called puppy mills today, as they kept a lot of dogs, often multiple breeds and had litters often. Without them, many of us purebred dog owners wouldn't have the dogs we do. The line my Belgians are from was created by a breeder who certainly bred a lot of litters. There are 17,923 dogs with her kennel name listed in the on line pedigree database. If anyone came here saying they had produced such a large number of dogs in their life they would be bashed without hesitation. Her breeding program did a lot for the breed in the US though and created a recognizable, consistent line. It is only very recently that "rarely breeding" has been part of the criteria to be a good breeder. There is still responsible breeding of mixes and developing of new breeds going on today, it just isn't PC to talk about anymore.

 UGH! for posting a humane society's criteria for choosing a good breeder that is complete with breeder bashing "Supports rescue groups; knows his actions inevitably play some part in pet overpopulation and euthanasia (one of every four dogs in shelters is purebred). Even with all his efforts to stem over- population, he knows "cracks" will lead to canine deaths".

Chuffy

Agreed, but having a cosmetic fault outweighed by other virtues that contribute to the line is a world away from just simply being an extremely poor example of the breed.   

 Cosmetic faults are often the cause of a standard DQs - Belgian Sheepdogs can't be white in the wrong places or be a color other than black. A brown Belgian born in a B. Sheepdog litter would to some qualify as a "poor example of the breed" because having a DQ  (wrong color) they would not be permitted to show in AKC conformation. Should that prevent them from having full registration?

whtsthfrequency

What people were arguing was that shelters are "flying in dogs in order to make some sort of a profit because shelter workers are so greedy, etc.

 I think it has more to do with the generally anti-breeder feelings of the rescue community. Shelters don't want potential adopters turning to breeders, so they are bringing in dogs to meet the public's demand for _________ (purebreds, toy breeds, puppies). I do think there is a profit motive, as some shelters charge much more for certain dogs than others but I don't feel that is the driving reason.

Elistism....if showing that I actually CARE is elitism, then so be it.

If I didn't care, I'd breed Strauss and send off one of his hell spawn (ha ha) to some unsuspecting dolt and laugh all the way to the bank with the $2000 I'd charge for his puppies.

I've had people ask me why I've not bred him.
I've had people tell me that they desperately want a Strauss puppy.
I've had several people approach me and ask me to let him breed their bitch.

I always say no.

Why?

He has a great pedigree.
He has a great work ethic.
He has great drive.
He is highly trainable.
He is biddable.

Yes.  We know.  So why don't you breed him?

Because his conformation isn't good enough.
Because he's too pushy.
Because he's too high octane for what most people want.  Though if they want a couch potato, they shouldn't be looking at a GSD in the first place.

There is NOTHING wrong with wanting "just a pet".  EVERY litter from every reputable breeder will contain "just pets".  That's just the way it is.  But if you want a Shepherd? 

I'll be breeding GSDs in the future, and I'll be selling a good many as pets, because not all will turn out for work/show...but you can bet they'll be going to an ACTIVE home!  Too many people these days consider a "good pet" to be one that can just lay around and be happy on the floor.

That is not a (proper) German Shepherd Dog. 

This is what a German Shepherd Dog is capable of:

This is what a German Shepherd Dog IS:
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You want the first picture?  Then you better get your butt moving and do something like the second picture to attain it.  Does a GSD HAVE to do Schutzhund?  No.  Does a GSD HAVE to herd? No.  Does a GSD HAVE to do formal obedience? No.  Does a GSD HAVE to do SOMETHING?  YES!!!

But don't you DARE tell me that I'm a snob or an elitist for refusing to water down my great breed just so YOU don't have to get off your butt and WORK.  Don't you DARE tell me that I'm on a high horse for refusing  to further desecrate this great breed that's already having enough issues simply because you want a dog that holds down a couch.

Nothing wrong with companion dogs at all.  Strauss is primarily a pet.  But I'll be damned if anybody can come in and call me "elitist" because I don't want to see my breed any further destroyed than it already is.  And I'll be damned if I end up giving up on my breed while they still stand a chance of not becoming driveless, generic, black and tan lumps that ANYBODY can own.

That's part of why I love Shepherds.  I love them because not everybody can own them, and I take great pride in owning a breed that can be so extremely easy in one area, and so horrifically difficult in another.  I take great pride in knowing that my dogs are what they are because of their breeding and because of my work.

I refuse to dilute their temperaments and work ethic and drive simply to please the masses.  The GSD is not here to please the masses.  The GSD is here to love, protect, and serve.  The GSD is the epitome of a versatile and working dog, and the moment that is gone....the moment that is gone is the day I fall to my knees and die.

Elitist?

No.

What I am is driven to preserve what is RIGHT, not what is WANTED.

 

Xeph - I thought that was a great post!

I think I have sort of an odd view because I come from an odd breed...in some ways I fall under the category of great big snot and in other ways I dont.

For one I believe in breeding dogs for what they were originally inteneded - I dont think it's right to water down a breed because people want to just show or just have a pet.  I think that litters should be bred with the original purpose of the breed in mind.  In any of the shepherd breeds this means not breeding just for show dogs, or just breding for pups - but in every litter breeding for work (in shepherds work takes on a versatile nature - in a litter you might get dogs suited to SchH, Herding, SAR, and service all in one litter...and in my mind that's a successful, versatile litter).  That doesnt mean there wont be some couch potatos in every litter...it just means the whole litter wont be couch potato...and that might mean less pet Shepherds for the general public...but I dont think thats a bad thing.

But at the same time I dont have a problem breeding dogs that may not excell in the showring...or for that matter DQ colors (as long as there isnt a health issue related to that color).  My breed wouldnt have come to be if some very dedicated breeders hadnt sat down and kept the white coat in GSDs alive - and now today they are a seperate breed in Europe and there are two groups in the US (one breeding for seperation - the group I belong to, and one trying to reverse the DQ) breeding some nice quality dogs - however - I still think that as a seperate breed that versatily and solid working temperment should be worked and maintained!

I believe in breeding for health very strongly above all else - but after that I am a strong believer in form following function.  I think that temperment and nerves and drives in a working breed should come before how well they do in a showring...but thats just me.

I think on this kind of topic it is hard - because everyone has a different ideal of what is right.  I dont think I judge other breeders as harshly who perhaps dont work their dogs in what I consider the big five (Police/military, SchH, SAR, Herding, Service) if they are working their dogs in some way and above all else ensuring the health of their lines and breeding discriminantly and with a goal.  However - what other breeders do affects who I am going to purchase a pup from or what lines I will bring into my own.  Ruby was purchased as a show prospect...but through her and her dam line I learned about working dogs and SchH - and because of that I selected Leo based off his health and secondly his drives and temperment...and I think I got a fantastic dog as a result.

So am I a snob - no...I think some people would call me a BYB because I want to breed whites....but I am following a breed standard - it's not the GSD breed standard because Ruby just isnt a GSD (She's imported) and Leo I dont consider to be a GSD.  (I do have plans to breed in the future if my dogs earn their diplomas (Health clearances and Working clearances and Championship)...and if they dont then I will keep looking until I find the dog that does meet that and start from there).  Some people might not because I am pretty snarly about what I want for my lines.

One interesting thing I have heard from a breeder I trully respect is that she has never given out breeding rights to one of her males...and only does very sparingly with her females (many of her dogs go into service work).  What she told me when she inquired about the male was that it is very scary to have a male out of your lines be very popular.  Sure they might have something to give to the breed - but what if they have a problem...what if they are hiding something that desperatley maims the breed in a few years (HYPP and Impressive the Quarter Horse comes to mind).  I think if more people had this fear than alot of breeds would be better off...or at leats healthier.

I also thought I would add one more note - I recently published an article in my breed newsletter called "Bettering the Breed" by Terry Thistlethwaite.  She talks about how we have ruined breeds by bettering them...and that people should think more about maintaing the breeds than bettering them.  I dont disagree with here...there are many breeds that were alot better of in the 60's than they are today though people's misguided attempts at 'better'.

Sorry if I regurgitated anything or kind of fell off topic...this thread was enourmous and I skimmed through trying to keep up O.o

~Cate

Xeph

Because his conformation isn't good enough.
Because he's too pushy.
Because he's too high octane for what most people want.  Though if they want a couch potato, they shouldn't be looking at a GSD in the first place.

But don't you DARE tell me that I'm a snob or an elitist for refusing to water down my great breed just so YOU don't have to get off your butt and WORK.  Don't you DARE tell me that I'm on a high horse for refusing  to further desecrate this great breed that's already having enough issues simply because you want a dog that holds down a couch.

 This confuses me a bit - first you say your boy has a great work ethic, drive and biddablity but you won't breed him because he is "too pushy" and "too high octane". I was puzzled by that as, if I remember correctly you want to breed Amline GSDs that have working temperaments. It sounds like you have quite a bit of that with your boy and I can't see why you would throw that out because of pushiness or high drive/activity. Is he hyper without an off switch? Is his conformation unsuitable for working, he has cosmetic flaws or he just won't cut it in the AKC ring? I'm not being mean just interested in your reasoning. It further confused me because you said you refuse to "water down" the breed but it sounds like you aren't breeding your male because his puppies would be more than "most people would want". Breeding for what most people would want is, in fact watering down the breed.

This confuses me a bit - first you say your boy has a great work ethic, drive and biddablity but you won't breed him because he is "too pushy" and "too high octane".  I was puzzled by that as, if I remember correctly you want to breed Amline GSDs that have working temperaments.

Correct memory :-) 

It sounds like you have quite a bit of that with your boy and I can't see why you would throw that out because of pushiness or high drive/activity. Is he hyper without an off switch?

Nope.  Has an off switch :-)  I've actually been in bed, sick as a dog (haha) for the last four days or so, and Mouse hasn't even gotten to do more than go out in the yard and potty and play a bit of fetch with my brother for a few minutes (Which was very nice of my brother).

Four days of no real exercise (this is a dog that can go for a 10-12 mile bikejog) and you know what he did?  He spent that time in bed with me and snuggled. 

Is his conformation unsuitable for working, he has cosmetic flaws or he just won't cut it in the AKC ring?

He has a CRAPPY front.  There's no way he'd ever pass an AD because when he gaits he elbows in and twists on his pads, causing them to tear.  It's not because he lacks endurance (I band his feet when we go bikejogging now).  He's straight through the shoulder and move from the elbow.  Upper arm is too short and steep. 

I'm not being mean just interested in your reasoning.

I know, I took it as honest questioning :-) 

It further confused me because you said you refuse to "water down" the breed but it sounds like you aren't breeding your male because his puppies would be more than "most people would want". Breeding for what most people would want is, in fact watering down the breed.

I should have been more clear.

Really, if I had a PROPER bitch I'd probably consider breeding him...but most of the GSD people don't think he's breed worthy, so he's not being bred.  I have no bitch to breed him to, so he's not being bred.

Even if I DID have  bitch, I doubt I'd breed him, much as I'd want to.

Why?

Concerned about the puppies.

I know that I would be ok with Strauss puppies, as I know their pedigree, and his temperament, and I'd know the pedigree and temperament of the bitch as well.  But, I think I'd be very uncomfortable selling to a first time GSD owner KNOWING what my dog is, and what he does.

In essence...I don't want to be wrong, and risk the lives of my dog's progeny because I made an error.

I've had SEVERAL people in the last year ask me when I'll have Strauss puppies.  I have SEVERAL people who want a Service Dog puppy out of him.  I tell them that he won't be bred, and even if he were, I couldn't promise a Service Dog puppy.

I tell them that he won't be bred, and even if he were, I couldn't give them a puppy, not because I don't like them or trust them, but because THEIR temperaments aren't right for the breed.

One of my very best buddies is absolutely DYING for a Strauss puppy.  He'd kill for one.

I out and out told him, "They aren't the right breed for you."
"Why?"
"....You're too nice."

And it's true...he IS too nice!  He's very "soft" with his own temperament, and doesn't possess the firmness needed to own and train a GSD. 

You know what he owns right now?

....A Cocker Spaniel.

If I thought for one minute that I could find the right bitch, the right homes, and the right timing to breed Mouse and keep a puppy back and that he had something to offer the breed besides his work ethic, drive, and temperament, I'd consider it.

But right now I don't think I have the right tools to breed him ethically and responsibly, as much as I wanted to use him for my kennel.

I go back and forth all the time, and ultimately my answer is always, "It's selfish to breed him...there are better dogs."

Not an easy decision, but one that had to be made.

Benedict

Does that mean that the black dogs who happen randomly and/or unpredictably in a litter of well bred pups should never have been born?  Should my dog, and the other 6 black labs in his litter, have been PTS, and only the 6 chocolate ones found responsible homes?  Because it's not always predictable when breeding color, you know... 

Did the breeder go back at least three generations to make sure there was no black coloring in the dogs ancestry?  If not he was not a responsible breeder!

Benedict

ETA:  I see no argument whatsoever good enough to make people wanting a large black dog "resort" to a BYB.  They won't all go to shelters....encouraging people to go to BYB's is exactly what we're trying to move away FROM.

Those that are breeding black and/or large dogs are contributing to problem of dogs being put to sleep in shelters just like BYB are!  I fail see what the difference is between them.

Benedict

ETA again:  At the time of my initial inquiry to my dog's breeder, there was not a single large black dog in any shelter within 30 miles of me.  Nor was there a single lab.  95% of the identifiable dogs were staffies, boxers, yorkies or mixes of those.  The others were totally unidentifiable and all were, for one reason or another, totally incompatible with my lifestyle.

Others on this thread have brought up the lack of suitable dogs in their local shelters but they were told that they should just expand their search!  After all the selection of a dog should not dependent on just was is available or convenient!

Marklf

Chuffy

Someone has tried to turn this thread very silly, and lots of people have allowed that someone to be successful... 

Or some one turned the silly arguments around on those that first made them?

Mark

Yeahhh, I'm gonna go with Chuffy on this one. 

RidgebackGermansShep

Obviously he's being facetious.

Apparently it was not as obvious to others as it was to you and me

Mark

I'm not really sure how this became a purebred discussion. I have to say from experience that purebred BYB puppies are a bad investment. However, BYB mixed puppies are often a great investment. The dog of my early childhood was a Gordon Setter cross Lab. She was something special. And she was very healthy. Jill is a Boxer cross Kelpie. Also a great dog, very healthy. Every crossbreed that I've lived with has been very healthy, physically. A few of them had some temperamental issues that I think may have been partly or wholly learnt. I knew a corgi cross maltese that was very healthy and an awesome dog. I mean, this board is full of crossbreeds. I don't think I have to convince anyone here that they make good pets.

The trouble I have with this argument that breeding should be done responsibly, though, is that if that happened, by the definition of people on this board, there would be no crossbreeds. What happens then? What if you can't afford a well bred purebred dog? You go to the shelter and pick up someone else's cast-off with no known history? That's not my cup of tea. I'd buy a crossbreed bred in a backyard over a shelter dog any day. At least I can view at least one parent and the way the pups are being brought up and their early experiences with people. There's a pretty reasonable chance the dogs will be healthy due to beloved hybrid vigour, and I'll see that they are brought up 'properly' in my eyes. I get everything I want. I win.

At this point in time, my preference for obtaining dogs goes 1) responsible breeder, 2) breed rescue but only when the dog's history is known, 3) BYB crossbreed puppy, 4) shelter puppy, 5) shelter/foster dog.

I have no problem with people breeding healthy, lovely family pets, although I'm far happier with a crossbreed than a mix of several unknown breeds.  

You go to the shelter and pick up someone else's cast-off with no known history? That's not my cup of tea. I'd buy a crossbreed bred in a backyard over a shelter dog any day. At least I can view at least one parent and the way the pups are being brought up and their early experiences with people. There's a pretty reasonable chance the dogs will be healthy due to beloved hybrid vigour, and I'll see that they are brought up 'properly' in my eyes. I get everything I want. I win.

How the heck is buying a mutt puppy from unhealthtested parents any less of a crapshoot than going to the shelter for the same mix?!

Seeing the parents doesn't change lack of health clearances, and when you cross two breeds....especially two breeds with tons of known health problems, you aren't any better off.

All that hybrid vigor stuff is absolute bologna!
 

I'm only speaking from experience. I've known a lot more mixed breeds than purebreds in my short life and not a single mixed breed has had health problems. Several purebreds have, because they were badly bred with little attention to health. I'm not saying mixed breeds never have health problems, just that it's very uncommon in my experience, as in, unheard of at this date! You wouldn't see me paying more than a couple hundred dollars for a mixed breed puppy, though. If they're making money off the puppies, I don't want any part in it.

The difference between getting a BYB mixed breed puppy and a shelter dog is in the temperament and meeting the mother. As far as I'm concerned, the more info the better. And seeing the environment a puppy was born into is to me a real big clue on what to expect. Nothing is fool proof, but I like information. I don't want cast-offs because I don't have the time or inclination to a) risk the health and happiness of my current animals and b) overcome the messed upedness that most likely led to the dog being dumped in the first place. It's nothing personal to shelter dogs or those that have them. Just not my deal.
 

corvus

I'm only speaking from experience. I've known a lot more mixed breeds than purebreds in my short life and not a single mixed breed has had health problems. Several purebreds have, because they were badly bred with little attention to health. 

In my experience the opposite is true---I have met more mixed breeds with health problems than mixes that are free of health issues. The health issue I have seen the most is HD,  and the runner up is eye problems.

I agree that a poorly bred purebred dog can have health problems----and where do the mixed breed puppies come from? Are the coming from two well-bred health tested parents? Nope. Are the grandparents well bred and health tested? Nope---and I say this because if the parents came from responsible breeders they would have required s/n and there wouldn't be a litter of mixed breed pups.

You have lucked out in your encounters with mixed breed dogs because the mixing does not guarantee better health. Hybrid vigor is a myth and could only work if all health problems were breed specific---and they are not. For example, HD is in labs and GSDs and goldens etc....so a labXGSD mix isn't safe from HD because his parents are two different breeds and somehow the HD gene from one breed won't match up with the HD gene from another breed. It doesn't work that way.

corvus

The difference between getting a BYB mixed breed puppy and a shelter dog is in the temperament and meeting the mother. As far as I'm concerned, the more info the better.

Choose whatever you like, but I wanted to point out for lurkers  that with an adult dog what you see is what you get for size, temperment, acvtivity level, desire to please people, health---the whole enchilada. In other words, everything that is a guessing game with a puppy. With a mixed-breed pup you can meet the mom but that isn't the end-all and be-all of the pup's genes.

Your pup's mom might be a sweet laid back coach potato, but dad could be:

 a high drive border collie: you get an adult dog that wants to go and go and go....

a wire fox terrier.  I'll just quote from the standard here"The Terrier should be alert, quick of movement, keen of expression, on the tip-toe of expectation at the slightest provocation."

akita: again from the standard "Aggressive toward other dogs" BTW You won't be able to discern this tendency with a pup.

Mixed breed pups are surprise packages and sometimes you can guess what is inside---but sometimes you can't.