The Elitist Attitude.

DPU

HoundMusic

Faulty dogs are culls, plain & simple. Yet we can never expect a dog to be faultless - or even near faultless.

Can this be briefly explained further?  Do dog breeding professionals, dog fanciers, and clubs establish the criteria as to when this is done?  Is it part of the ethics codes?

     Culling means to effectively remove a dog from the breeding pool. Neutering is culling. However, if there is a serious health or temperament issue involved and the dog cannot be placed in a home safely & successfully, culling can also mean euthanizing. If you're a breeder, it is unethical to NOT cull. 
     All breeds have differing criteria for culling based on breed standards and what the indivigual breeder's requirements are for their breeding program ...  

HoundMusic

If you're a breeder, it is unethical to NOT cull. 
    

I have never seen it in the list that defines a "reputable" ethical breeder.  I suppose there is a subjective line where ethical breeders fall on both sides. 

A breeder who breeds only healthy, tested animals is culling by definition.  

Might I just point out that those who RESPONSIBLY breed large dogs with some black or ALL black are extremely careful in their placement of said dogs, just as ANY responsible breeder will be.  The local all breed rescues are careful, but not as careful as the gsd rescues that I work with are.  In the past three years those rescues have something like a 98.5% rate of permanate placements.....only 1.5% of the dogs placed, and they are in the hundreds, have come back.  And those include dogs who couldn't be kept because of the death of owners, etc.

When I was breeding, I did NOT show.  However, I had confirmation from other breeders, from members of my breed club, including a couple AKC judges, that my dogs were indeed worthy of being bred and would further the breed. 

By some definitions, I would have been a backyard breeder.  By MY definition, nope.  I didn't just decide to breed Fluffy to Cujo and then do testing to be sure they were *ok* and go for it.  I did ALL the genetic testing, and actively sought confirmation that my dogs should be bred.  I offered health guarentees, forever return policy, placed on limited registration with a spay/nueter contract, etc, etc, etc.

However, as has been repeatedly stated, the best breeder is going to have pet quality pups, and just because someone wants a show quality pup, there is no obligation to SHOW that pup, if that's not what they want to do.  Some breeders DO expect the pups to be shown, if they develop as expected, but not all do.

In my experience, shelter dogs are loving and wonderful additions to the family, same for rescues, and yep, same for purebreds FROM RESPONSIBLE BREEDERS.

The one thing that seems to be missing from all the "ifs" (dogs are healthy, good temperment, etc) is the history of their parents, grandparents, great grandparents, predisposition to genetic conditions, etc.  Lacking that is an excellent reason for the nice folks down the street not to breed FiFi to Pepe and hope for the best.

glenmar

The one thing that seems to be missing from all the "ifs" (dogs are healthy, good temperment, etc) is the history of their parents, grandparents, great grandparents, predisposition to genetic conditions, etc.  Lacking that is an excellent reason for the nice folks down the street not to breed FiFi to Pepe and hope for the best.

It sounds to me like even if you are the perfect breeder and one of your pups is the perfect pup, others in the litter come out degraded with maybe even some being culled.  That should be humbling and have an opposite effect on an Elitist Attitude

Not even close to what I said, David, and not implied either.

I personally don't know any breeders who cull, and, I sure wouldn't call a pet quality pup "degraded".

I know several reputable breeders who cull.

Like I stated earlier, culling also equals spaying and neutering, not just death.  It is removing a dog from the gene pool.

The responsible breeder also has it in their contracts for pets that you must spay/neuter them...controlling their line and culling those that aren't breedworthy. 

Ditto!

Culling is removing the dogs who do not meet the breed standard/temperament/health requirements for the breed from the breeders breeding program. Examples are dogs who carry the white gene/deaf gene/have genetic health problems/temperament problems/kinked tails, etc..the list can be very long depending on the breed.

 Culling is done by spay/neuter or what is considered true culling by euthanization. In Am Staffs culling was done in true form by many breeders as they didn't feel the dogs they were culling weren't worth feeding until they could be placed because there was no credit given to a pet puppy. In my litter in Sept I had a pup who was more then 80% white, a fault in my breed. She was placed in a pet home as a replacement pup for a previous buyer who's dog passed at a young age and I wanted to replace the pup for this fabulous owner. Many a breeder would have not wasted the time on this pup. Sad to say she was the BEST dog in the litter despite her lack of color. Structure, temperment and attitude was there, I probably could have shown her and finished her to her championship but why would I as she had a fault? She has been spayed and will not contribute to the gene pool/breed just as she shouldn't

I appreciate that somebody did admit that "Culling" (death) does exist in the breeding world........it has existed in the breeding program of the dog sledding world, but is being viciously denied, even though several cases have been brought to the light.......

My question would be, how does this take place? Does a breeder have a good standing relationship with the vet and the vet has no issues putting down innocent pups, or are there other methods involved?

And I know I am repeating myself but, what the heck, it seems germaine to this conversation.

I knew a lady with a Yellow Lab. This dog, female, was a sweetheart. Marshmallow temperment, adores the kids hanging on her and pulling ears. Is a CGC and a therapy dog and came from a breeding where a champion status went back for generations on each side. Show winners in her line's history. And she was spayed, never having bred a litter. For one thing, just because her parents produced winners doesn't mean she will. But there could also be other faults. Mabye she was the best of the litter and the others had more faults. Faults that would also be in her genes. Whatever the reason, she was not bred. And not breeding is just as much a part of ethical breeding as is deciding which dam or sire are good candidates.

Ethical breeding is about what is good for the dog and it's breed, not about humans wanting a pup right now, albeit, much of the breeds have become what they are due to human wants and/or needs. If we had not started controlling their breeding, most dogs would still look like an NGSD or even a large coyote. But, I think, the aim of most breed clubs is perfection of the breed. And temperment is included in that list of requirements. To where all of the litter are sweethearts and the difference between show quality and pet quality is only cosmetic. Even though I don't specifically agree with picking on cosmetics alone. However, in order to judge best of breed, etc., you must have a list of dimensions and color with which to compare. Otherwise, anyone could call their dog this or that breed.

As far as my dictionary in concerned, "culling" is selective slaughter of animals.

Don't know why anyone would want to call removing a dog from the gene pool culling if it didn't involve slaughter.... There's a bit of food for thought.

corvus

As far as my dictionary in concerned, "culling" is selective slaughter of animals.

Don't know why anyone would want to call removing a dog from the gene pool culling if it didn't involve slaughter.... There's a bit of food for thought.

And another thread if you want to discuss it.

Culling means to pick.  When the content is supplied it is the resulting action that becomes relevent.  Positive, you pick the best and preserve.  Negative, you pick the worst and discard.  I think the population generally accepts culling of animals to mean death. 

The dog standards and ethical breeding practices are well documented as the definition of a "reputable" breeder.  For the degraded pups in the litter, my impression is that spay/neuter is the one and only option to take the pup out of the breeding program.  Culling, the generally accepted definition, is not mentioned as to under what conditions/circumstances this should happen.  It is not too far of a leap to think that this can be abused given the dedication and somewhat obsession of fanciers who by their definition is on a quest to improve and given the human tendency to irrationally act when emotions are involved.  Something so important as to why/when/how to put a pup to death should be at the top of the list of what defines a "reputable" breeder.

Like so many others, I had a life with a dog whose standard/temperament/health deviated far from the standards.  Yes a dog that was pigment challenged, deaf, and her temperment was just way too gentle.   This dog was a very public dog and did little to promote the breed but did so much for all dogs.  Image a dog that has the power to make one appreciate all dogs because or in spite of her faults that were created by nature.  While in public a few approached me and said breeders cull these dogs from the litter.  I know what they meant and I am sure I would have gotten a puzzled look back if I said she is culled because she is spayed/neutered.

Sorry... off topic.