The Elitist Attitude.

AgileGSD

  But what about people who want say a pug but get turned down by rescue? A friend of mine was turned down by every pug or small breed rescue she contacted because she has intact dogs and/or has GSDs. I adopted an Aussie out to a family who was turned down by Aussie rescue because they don't have a fenced yard, even though they have had Aussies for most of their lives. And the same Aussie rescue turned down a person I know for an Aussie because she had an intact male who was a CH UD dog. He is neutered now but she has frozen on him and I can't help but wonder if in rescue's eyes owning sperm from your neutered dog would be a no-go too ;)

I agree that this is an issue.  My friend has always had Pyrs and when her Pyrs died, she was turned down by the Pyr rescue for not having a fence.  She knows about LGDs and is reluctant to let her Pyrs off a lead even when there IS a fence.  The rescue simply would not budge so she eventually went to a reputable Pyr breeder.  Ironically, she got money from a family property that was sold and bought a house, got a fence...

But anyway...I think this is a separate issue from breeding.  The rescues need to re-think how they evaluate adopters.  I don't think the breeders need to relax their standards.

But regardless of how many puppies are at your local shelter, and it seems to vary by location, it is still not nearly enough to satisfy the entire pup-wanting population of the US.  So then you turn to reputable breeders.  Sure, it is pretty easy to find reputable breeders.  But that is only because the puppy-wanting public does not know what a reputable breeder is.  So since 99% of puppy buyers are buying their dogs from byb's, pet stores and puppy mills, that allows for an available spot for you on a reputable breeder's waiting list.  But lets say every person wanting a puppy was reponsible when it comes to choosing a source for their new pup (and that is the ideal that we are striving for, right?)  Suddenly there is a huge shortage (not to mention the poor reputable breeders, who are only in it because they want to improve the breed, who now find themselves in the position of having the responsibilty for supplying the entire  US demand for their breed on their shoulders  and are now being inundated with masses of emails and phone calls on a daily basis, only to turn almost everyone down!).  And I then find it ironic how the self-described 'elitists' don't even want these repuable breeders to breed more than a couple of litters per year, because they will no longer be considered reputable!  Reputable breeders are also not allowed to benefit financially from their breedings, so that sure limits the number of people in this world who want to breed for any reason but.

 The number of dachshund puppies born to breeders who would be considered reputable by the strictest of standards would be somewhere in the hundreds per year, maybe a thousand at most, as an estimate.  Well the number of people looking for dachshund puppies is in the tens of thousands per year.  Is anyone going to tell me that there are 20,000 dachshund pups sitting around on death row in shelters to fill this void?  So instead of insisting on a dachshund pup, a person with no nowehere to turn for their dachshund should instead settle for an adult medium or large sized mixed breed from a shelter that is in no way a match for their lifestyle (and the shelters and rescues always insist on a match being the right one, for good reasons) and will probably end up back at the shelter.

 So I really don't know what the right answer is, and it doesn't seem like there really is one.

When my DH and I decided we wanted a pure breed Swissy we began the process of finding a breeder.  Once we narrowed down our options we applied, once excepted we went on a waiting list.  The breeder we choose had a 1+ year waiting list, we went on it.  Within 9 months we had our dog.  Funny thing is this, people go on waiting lists and those lists dwindle in time.  Some people find other options, some people decide to adopt or rescue, some people change there minds all together.  With us, 3 people on the waiting list dropped off due to divorces!! SURPRISE THERE!  Two dropped off because they became pregnant with a child and decided it would be too much all at once.  In my mind, if these 5 potential buyers were not on a waiting list they would have dogs that POSSIBLY would have ended up in shelters or rescues.  It happens everyday just for these reasons alone. Given the litter was larger than expected and the list shrunk we got our boy sooner than expected.  It was a thrill following the breeding pair, knowing they were pregnant. Researching there heritage thru the AKC, knowing there damn and sire and there's.  Being notified that the litter was born and sent pictures, being able to visit and watch them grow while the breeder prepared us for which he was finding to be suitable for us. Why is wanting a puppy an immediate thing?   Because you promised your kid he can have one if he get's an A on his spelling test?  I don't understand?  To me it's like planning for a child, you plan, you procreate, you bake and you have.   For me I only planned one dog, that was my Swissy, our Pug is our daughters dog and she waited 6 months for Hailie.  My third came to me needing a loving home.

The answer is not to find ways to increase the supply and availablility of puppies for immediate fulfillment.  The fact that puppies are not readily available is what we should all strive for.  If more people would take there time to consider their commitment, less dogs would end up homeless.

Anther thing, my breeder strongly suggested obedience training.  Since Swissy's grow from 5-140 pounds in less than 1.5 years many get turned back because they were not trained (Mudpuppy's point).  They also gave us a $50 certificate to be used if the dog was enrolled in training prior to 13 weeks old, once the dog was enrolled they sent us $50 - since the 6 week class was only $100 it was great incentive to commit.   

Liesje

Well, this is my personal list (copy and pasted from something else I wrote), and as I have said several times before, I think my criteria are pretty darn strict so that goes without saying.  There's a lot of breeders many other GSD fanciers consider reputable and don't have issues with, but I do.  In order for me to even consider a breeder for purchasing a puppy, it must meet ALL of the following criteria (based on GSDs, some of these might not be relevant to other breeds):

As I read your list, most and pretty close to all of your criterias listed, my rescue organization practices and I adhere to.  There is a lot more criteria when it comes to care such as nutrition, exercise, and socializing.  Maybe adhere to is the wrong word because none of the items are biggies.  Of course I can't do breed improvements and I chose not to belong to organizations like HSUS.   And of the course the PURPOSE is different. 

But I don't think there is fighting between rescue organizations about the relative importance of some of the criteria. At the highest level we are all doing the same thing and that is save a dog, just as all breeders supply puppies.  Each org does it differently.  I don't think potential adopters look at the organization, their beliefs, or the standard practices required of the fosterers.  Potential adopters have a preconceived notion of the dog they want, find one of our dogs through advertising, make arrangements to meet the dog and then assess the dog to see if the dog meets their needs and can fit into their home. I think most people have it backwards.  Potential adopters of our dogs are not martyrs first that make accomodation to the dog.  Potential adopters know the risks of life so even if they don't have health history on the dog, they accept the risk.  What is important to them is the dog's health at the time they are accessing whether to adopt or not. 

luvmyswissy

The answer is not find ways to increase the supply of puppies for immediate fulfillment.  The fact that puppies are not readily available is what we should all strive for.  If more people would take there time to consider there commitment, less dogs would end up homeless.

Excellent post! Fabulous! I agree 100%!!!

We did the same thing  with Jaia. It was like having a baby of our own. I had several months to plan, learn and commit to what was about to happen, look at puppy pictures... That was definitely part of the joy.

Another thing to keep in mind is that a LOT of people are unaware of breed specific rescue. A lot of people think that rescue means going to the local shelter. I've spoken to a lot of people who were interested in adopting a purebreed dogs, couldn't find one in a shelter and were filled with glee when I told them there are breed specific rescues.

Another problem to is the "gotta have it yesterday" mentality. I'm sure we all know people who have their heart set on a breed, they're given responsible breeder referrals only to be disappointed that the breeder doesn't have puppies NOW and that it can take up to a year to get a puppy from that person when their idea was to go get a puppy the same day.

Then you have the people who claim there are no puppies in their area. Their area meaning located within 15 minutes of their house. If you try to explain that if they broaden their horizons and travel outside of their immediate vicinity that they might find what they're looking for, you usually get every excuse in the book as to why they can't travel to get a dog.

In the end, I really don't think the fault lies with the responsible breeders. I think it falls on the unrealistic expectations of the puppy buyer. After all, you(collective you) are the one who wants a puppy. If you want that puppy, you have to do some work to get it as breeders aren't going to be beating down your door to give you one. For every person who complains that a breeder doesn't have puppies now, has a 1 year waiting list, charges too much for their puppies, the breeder lives too far etc.. etc... there will be at least 10 others who are more than willing to wait for a puppy, pay the price of said puppy and travel to go get it.

Well I am now a convert to the "elitist" point of view!!  All of the arguments posted about the excess amount of dogs in shelters plus the fact that it seems that it is acceptable for one to capriciously establish just what constitutes a "responsible" or "ethical" breeder has led me to believe that the "Elitists" are right!!!!  So with my new found "elitist attitude" let me join in and declare the minimum standard for an ethical breeder;

1.  It is a well established fact that shelters and rescues are inundated with dogs that have at least some black in their coat.  It is also a well established fact that the more black that a dog has in its coats the less likely it is to be adopted!  Those involved in shelter and rescue work call this Black Dog Syndrome.  Too many dogs are right now being PTS just because of the coloring of their coat!  THIS MUST STOP!  So from now no "responsible" or ethical" breeder will breed any dogs that have any black coloring!!!!  In fact in order to make sure that the the dog does not carry a recessive black gene the breeder must also check back at least three generation and insure that none of the breeding pair ancestors had any black in their coloring!  Even a small patch of black on the dogs would DQ them for breeding purposes!  Those people that still want a dog with a black coat or even black spots must get them from the shelters!  Any breeder that does not follow this is no better then a BYB and should be shunned!

2.  It is also a well established fact that larger dogs are harder for the shelters to place then smaller dogs.  Therefore no "ethical" or "responsible" breeder will breed dogs that are larger then 50 lbs!  In fact because the smaller a dog is the greater the chance for it to get adopted an "ethical" or "responsible" breeder should only breed dogs for the purpose of creating smaller dogs then their parents!  Of course the breeders must also check back at least three generations to make sure there are no recessive large dog genes in any of the breeding pairs ancestry.  Anyone that wants a larger dog must go to a shelter to get one!  Any breeder that does not follow this is no better then a puppy mill and should be shunned!

3.  Of course it goes without saying that anyone that is breeding both large and black dogs is not only unethical and irresponsible they are also cruel!  They should not only be shunned but they should be arrested for animal cruelty!!!

Anyone that does not agree with these simple standards is obviously not a dog lover and is only seeking a dog for selfish reason! (Hey this elitist attitude is kind of fun )

Mark

Marklf

Well I am now a convert to the "elitist" point of view!!  All of the arguments posted about the excess amount of dogs in shelters plus the fact that it seems that it is acceptable for one to capriciously establish just what constitutes a "responsible" or "ethical" breeder has led me to believe that the "Elitists" are right!!!!  So with my new found "elitist attitude" let me join in and declare the minimum standard for an ethical breeder;

1.  It is a well established fact that shelters and rescues are inundated with dogs that have at least some black in their coat.  It is also a well established fact that the more black that a dog has in its coats the less likely it is to be adopted!  Those involved in shelter and rescue work call this Black Dog Syndrome.  Too many dogs are right now being PTS just because of the coloring of their coat!  THIS MUST STOP!  So from now no "responsible" or ethical" breeder will breed any dogs that have any black coloring!!!!  In fact in order to make sure that the the dog does not carry a recessive black gene the breeder must also check back at least three generation and insure that none of the breeding pair ancestors had any black in their coloring!  Even a small patch of black on the dogs would DQ them for breeding purposes!  Those people that still want a dog with a black coat or even black spots must get them from the shelters!  Any breeder that does not follow this is no better then a BYB and should be shunned!

I don't think breeder are putting black coated dogs in shelters.  I would venture to guess that these dogs are mixed breeds.  Most breeds to have a specific's to there look.  If someone wants a black lab, a yellow lab or chocolate lab they can get it.  The breeders aren't puttng the black labs in shelters nor would I suspect are the buyers of the black labs.  It is most likely the accident litter and irresponsible breeding that is putting dogs in shelters for the most part.  And yes, you may be right people are looking for the unusual mixed breed dog.  Not the black one that "kinda" looks like a lab or someother breed.  Another good point to segragate responsible from irresponsible.

2.  It is also a well established fact that larger dogs are harder for the shelters to place then smaller dogs.  Therefore no "ethical" or "responsible" breeder will breed dogs that are larger then 50 lbs!  In fact because the smaller a dog is the greater the chance for it to get adopted an "ethical" or "responsible" breeder should only breed dogs for the purpose of creating smaller dogs then their parents!  Of course the breeders must also check back at least three generations to make sure there are no recessive large dog genes in any of the breeding pairs ancestry.  Anyone that wants a larger dog must go to a shelter to get one!  Any breeder that does not follow this is no better then a puppy mill and should be shunned!

  Well again, I don't think that the lab breeders or the Swissy breeder are putting there dogs in shelters.  It's the irriesponsible Lab and Swissy owners who are allowing there dog to mate and putting there puppies in shelters.  I wanted a Swissy, a big dog, so I went to a responsible breeder who had them - becasue I wanted one.

3.  Of course it goes without saying that anyone that is breeding both large and black dogs is not only unethical and irresponsible they are also cruel!  They should not only be shunned but they should be arrested for animal cruelty!!!

  Now your just being silly and trying to create a muck.

 

Anyone that does not agree with these simple standards is obviously not a dog lover and is only seeking a dog for selfish reason! (Hey this elitist attitude is kind of fun )

How old are you?

Mark

 

 

Marklf

All of the arguments posted about the excess amount of dogs in shelters plus the fact that it seems that it is acceptable for one to capriciously establish just what constitutes a "responsible" or "ethical" breeder has led me to believe that the "Elitists" are right!!!! 

Emphasis mine. We aren't just picking these qualities out of thin air. The qualities of a responsible and ethical breeder are established, not by each individual, but by people who are highly involved in the breed and bettering the breed.

BYB vs Reputable Breeder.  

Traits of Responsible Breeders and BYBs 

FourIsCompany

We aren't just picking these qualities out of thin air. The qualities of a responsible and ethical breeder are established, not by each individual, but by people who are highly involved in the breed and bettering the breed.

 

I am just so puzzled by all of this.  It seems to me that in order to get  the purebreds of today with their standards maintained by ethical and "reputable" breeders, someone had to be unethical along the way. E.g. mixed breeding in order to get the Great Dane of today.

DPU

It seems to me that in order to get  the purebreds of today with their standards maintained by ethical and "reputable" breeders, someone had to be unethical along the way. E.g. mixed breeding in order to get the Great Dane of today.

But the ethical breeders didn't breed a mastiff with bad hips to a Greyhound with a bad heart to do it. They didn't sacrifice health and/or temperament to get the Great Dane of today. Not the responsible breeders.

FourIsCompany

Marklf

All of the arguments posted about the excess amount of dogs in shelters plus the fact that it seems that it is acceptable for one to capriciously establish just what constitutes a "responsible" or "ethical" breeder has led me to believe that the "Elitists" are right!!!! 

 

Emphasis mine. We aren't just picking these qualities out of thin air. The qualities of a responsible and ethical breeder are established, not by each individual, but by people who are highly involved in the breed and bettering the breed.

BYB vs Reputable Breeder.  

Traits of Responsible Breeders and BYBs 

 

Hmmm interesting that you state that the qualities for ethical and responsible breeders are not established by individuals but then posted two links to the standards of what constitutes a responsible breeder according to two individuals!  The fact that those two links do not list the same standards for "responsible" breeders seems to indicate that those "standards" are not as well established as you are claiming!  Also in looking at the two authors that you posted it seems that the first one is a "breeder" and may be involved in "bettering" his breed but his breed according to him is NOT a suitable bred to be own as a pet!  I found nothing from the author of the second link that you posted that indicates she is doing anything in regards to "bettering" her breed other then she spayed her dog and posts on an animal rights site.  So why are either of these individuals more qualified to establish standards for PET breeders then anyone else?

Mark

Well, if you want to label someone an elitist, maybe my viewpoint takes it to the extreme...

I don't think dogs should be bred at all...for any reason, and regardless of any standard. The exception, and I think that nobody on this board qualifies, is those that rely on their dogs for survival (i.e. transportation etc.).

We have somehow come to perceive ourselves as caretakers of the canine species, and our need for companionship has extended, unnaturally in my opinion, outside our own species.  If we stand back and take a good long look at why we keep pets, I am convinced that there is no other reason outside of selfish ego.  We OWN pets.  Yes, we bond with them, take care of them, some regard them as equal members of their family. I am not disregarding any of this, but I am stating that it is selfish, unnecessary, and harmful to us and our dogs.

How are we, as humans, in any position to judge a breed standard? I believe dogs were originally bred for purpose, and no more were bred than could be adequately maintained or needed to fulfill a need. This got away from us, and appearance became a factor in selectivity.  If my dog's shoulders are rounded, but can pull twice as much as my "breed ideal" dog, than why on Earth would I breed my "pretty" dog?  I wouldn't. I would either kill it (yes, kill. Cull is just a fancy way of saying kill) or have it fulfill some other need until it died.

Again, I own dogs, have all my life...but I do so under the full weight of the awareness of my hypocrisy. If I had the strength to live outside of my human failings, all dogs would be free to live or die on their own terms.  Let's not pretend we are doing any dog a favour by breeding it.  Apply these same standards to human selective breeding and see if your opinion differs.  If so why? Are dogs inferior and deserve a looser moral standard than us?

Either they deserve our respect as equal living beings on this planet, or they are ours to manipulate.  You can't have it both ways.

Marklf

Well I am now a convert to the "elitist" point of view!!  All of the arguments posted about the excess amount of dogs in shelters plus the fact that it seems that it is acceptable for one to capriciously establish just what constitutes a "responsible" or "ethical" breeder has led me to believe that the "Elitists" are right!!!!  So with my new found "elitist attitude" let me join in and declare the minimum standard for an ethical breeder;

1.  It is a well established fact that shelters and rescues are inundated with dogs that have at least some black in their coat.  It is also a well established fact that the more black that a dog has in its coats the less likely it is to be adopted!  Those involved in shelter and rescue work call this Black Dog Syndrome.  Too many dogs are right now being PTS just because of the coloring of their coat!  THIS MUST STOP!  So from now no "responsible" or ethical" breeder will breed any dogs that have any black coloring!!!!  In fact in order to make sure that the the dog does not carry a recessive black gene the breeder must also check back at least three generation and insure that none of the breeding pair ancestors had any black in their coloring!  Even a small patch of black on the dogs would DQ them for breeding purposes!  Those people that still want a dog with a black coat or even black spots must get them from the shelters!  Any breeder that does not follow this is no better then a BYB and should be shunned!

2.  It is also a well established fact that larger dogs are harder for the shelters to place then smaller dogs.  Therefore no "ethical" or "responsible" breeder will breed dogs that are larger then 50 lbs!  In fact because the smaller a dog is the greater the chance for it to get adopted an "ethical" or "responsible" breeder should only breed dogs for the purpose of creating smaller dogs then their parents!  Of course the breeders must also check back at least three generations to make sure there are no recessive large dog genes in any of the breeding pairs ancestry.  Anyone that wants a larger dog must go to a shelter to get one!  Any breeder that does not follow this is no better then a puppy mill and should be shunned!

3.  Of course it goes without saying that anyone that is breeding both large and black dogs is not only unethical and irresponsible they are also cruel!  They should not only be shunned but they should be arrested for animal cruelty!!!

 

Anyone that does not agree with these simple standards is obviously not a dog lover and is only seeking a dog for selfish reason! (Hey this elitist attitude is kind of fun )

Mark

 

 

 The only problem is the majority of dogs who end up in shelters and rescues don't come from responsible breeders. Responsible breeders usually require first right of refusal and some will even go so far as to sue for breach of contract should you place the dog in a shelter or rescue. So even if we were to ban the breeding of black dogs or large dogs, as long as irresponsible breeding takes place there will always be a need for shelters and rescues.  

whtsthfrequency

This whole accusation of "importing" drives me crazy. I still have seen no legitimate info on it. Maybe some very VERY lucky shelters, in rich areas with a very low intake ratio, are able to take on dogs from dire situations overseas, but  99% are so strapped for money already there is no way they could possibly do what a select few people are saying they do.

Is it the idea of large scale transport of puppies across hundreds or even a thousand miles or the idea that pups are brought in from outside the continental US that you want to see proof of?? LOL In New England our spay/neuter rate is pretty good and shelters get pups from hundreds of miles (and more) away.

Believe it! Importing---from outside a state or even outside the continental US is a reality in some places. I know of many shelters/rescues that transport from other states and it seems the majority of their puppies come from outside their area.

Example of a group that brings pups to the continental US:

Save a Sato "Save A Sato is a non-profit organization dedicated to easing the suffering of Puerto Rico's homeless and abused animals. "Sato" is slang for street dog. We rescue Satos from the streets and beaches, give them medical care, food and shelter, and plenty of love. When they are healthy, we send them to one of our shelter partners for adoption into loving homes"

List of shelters they work with: http://saveasato.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=23&Itemid=39

There are Shelters and Rescues in New England that primarily get their puppies and dogs from outside the New England States:

Big Fluffy Dog Rescue of New England is affiliated with Tennessee Big Fluffy Dog Rescue, a 501(C)(3) non-profit, rescue group headquartered in Nashville, Tennessee. Big Fluffy Dog Rescue values dogs of all breeds, but specializes in what the name says: big, fluffy dogs. We have volunteers in several states in the South and New England who want to help homeless, fluffy dogs find a place to call their own. http://www.petfinder.com/shelters/MA370.html

New England Doglift: "New England Doglift ("NED";) is a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization that was formed for the sole purpose of uniting dogs with permanent loving homes. We are based in the Nashua - Manchester, NH area.

We do not have a shelter. All NED dogs are kept in foster homes. Millions of dogs are put to sleep needlessly every year. Here in New England we enjoy a low rate of euthanasia as compared to other parts of the country. A trip through local shelters will quickly reveal the limited number of available puppies for adoption.

Many families seeking to adopt have been looking locally for months - without success. Throughout the United States there are shelters where dogs and puppies are euthanized at an alarming rate. Our organization, with the assistance of dedicated volunteers, works to rescue dogs from over-crowded shelters throughout the United States and bring them to New Hampshire to be placed for adoption. The transportation of these dogs is most often accomplished through a coordinated effort of dedicated volunteers. Once the dogs arrive in New Hampshire they are placed in "foster homes".http://www.petfinder.com/shelters/NH45.html

 Wagging Tails Dog Rescue pups are mostly from the South and Midwest, but they "We may also accept local dogs for rehoming" http://www.wtdr.org/whoweare.php

Lucky Pup Rescue:http://www.petfinder.com/shelters/ME89.html 

Sterling Shelter Homebound Hounds http://www.sterlingshelter.org/services/homebound.html

Northeast Animal Shelter http://www.northeastanimalshelter.org/programs/puppies.php

I could keep posting links but I think you get the idea. I searched for a puppy on petfinder using a zipcode for a large Mass. city and the first 24 pups were from shelters/rescues that transport---and NONE of these was a breed-specific rescue.

:)