The Elitist Attitude.

Liesje

I don't think there should be a compromise at this point because supply so vastly outweighs demand.

Ok, I am still getting lost as to what is really necessary to be consider responsible.  Maybe in baby steps.  Ok, this is one of the items that defines a "reputable" breeder.  Is it necessary to be a responsible breeder.

7. Belongs to national, regional, and local dog clubs, indicating a love for the sport of purebred dogs. Exhibits own dogs as an objective test of how his stock measures up.

DPU

Liesje

I don't think there should be a compromise at this point because supply so vastly outweighs demand.

Ok, I am still getting lost as to what is really necessary to be consider responsible.  Maybe in baby steps.  Ok, this is one of the items that defines a "reputable" breeder.  Is it necessary to be a responsible breeder.

7. Belongs to national, regional, and local dog clubs, indicating a love for the sport of purebred dogs. Exhibits own dogs as an objective test of how his stock measures up.

 

 

Not sure what the question really is. Are you asking the bolded question, or a comment on the underlined?

DPU

Liesje

I don't think there should be a compromise at this point because supply so vastly outweighs demand.

Ok, I am still getting lost as to what is really necessary to be consider responsible.  Maybe in baby steps.  Ok, this is one of the items that defines a "reputable" breeder.  Is it necessary to be a responsible breeder.

7. Belongs to national, regional, and local dog clubs, indicating a love for the sport of purebred dogs. Exhibits own dogs as an objective test of how his stock measures up.
 

Well, this is my personal list (copy and pasted from something else I wrote), and as I have said several times before, I think my criteria are pretty darn strict so that goes without saying.  There's a lot of breeders many other GSD fanciers consider reputable and don't have issues with, but I do.  In order for me to even consider a breeder for purchasing a puppy, it must meet ALL of the following criteria (based on GSDs, some of these might not be relevant to other breeds):

1. An ethical breeder breeds for the improvement of their breed, first and foremost. They do not breed because they want to make money, because they want to experience the miracle of birth, because they think they have a dog worth breeding, because their friends want a puppy from their dog, or because they want to meet a demand. They breed because they have done enough research and competing to conclude that mating X-female to Y-male will produce dogs that are even better than either of the parents!  They should tell you explicitly why each breeding pair was chosen and why examples of other dogs were not.

2. An ethical breeder has done all appropriate health screening testing on their dogs. A vet’s approval/certificate does NOT count! Their dogs should be certified by organizations such as OFA, PennHIP, CERF, etc. proving that they are of appropriate breeding quality and free from certain health defects. Health tests will depend on the breed.

3. An ethical breeder actively shows and competes with their dogs, earning conformation titles and additional titles relevant to the breed. Conformation titles indicate the dog has the proper structure to do the work of the breed, and additional work and sport titles prove the dog has the correct drives, instinct, and athletic ability to do the work the breed was designed for.  Ideally, both parents are titled and at least one of the parents is titled on BOTH sides of its name.

4. An ethical breeder is transparent, meaning they allow and invite you to ask for references from previous customers and other breeders of the breed, tour their facilities, meet their dogs, and check all of their paperwork and certifications.

5. An ethical breeder will screen and interview you before matching you with a puppy. Good breeders will not allow you to choose your puppy and will deny you a puppy if there is not an appropriate match, even if there are still puppies left in the litter.  An ethical breeder will hold back puppies and keep them themselves if the personality of those puppies do not match the lifestyles of applicants.

6. An ethical breeder adheres to the breed standard and is not breeding for arbitrary traits like unusual colors (that often go hand-in-hand with certain genetic health problems) or trying to create a new breed or cross.

7. An ethical breeder will require you to sign a first right of refusal contract.

8. An ethical breeder exposes puppies to a set program of training and socialization. Ideally, the pups are raised in the home and are never released before eight weeks of age, as it is illegal in many states and detrimental for the pups socialization.

9. An ethical breeder will provide your dog with a guarantee against certain health defects and should invite you to return the dog within a certain time period if you are unhappy with it for any reason.

10. An ethical breeder considers health and temperament at the top of their priority list when selecting dogs to be bred. Breeding dogs should not have or carry health problems and proper temperament relative to the breed should be considered above color and flashy looks.

11. An ethical breeder signs the code of ethics of the breed's parent club and is on the breeder referral list, if applicable.

I have an elitist attitude as well. 

My uncle is a back yard breeder of labs and before that he breed coon dogs, because he was very into coon hunting for years and had a buying client base.  When that fizzled he choose Labs because everyone and there brother was buying them - big market.  He is always concerned for his dogs and their puppies and takes excellent care of them until they are sold - but that doesn't make him a responsible breeder.

He has always had good litters, by that I mean his Labs look like labs, walk like labs, act like labs, they all have AKC papers - none have had any health issues, hip issues or temperament issues, but that is luck not because he is a responsible breeder.

Most of his clients are friends, people taking a second or third dog from him or a friend of friends.  His litters go quickly, no advertising only word of mouth.  That is not because he is a legitimate breeder or responsible breeder it is because he sells his pups for less than the responsible breeders in our area.

He never breeds females more than twice in a X amount of time and will keep a female from a litter if his bitches have been breed enough. Not because he is a responsible breeder but because he does love his dogs and knows it is not healthy for his bitches.

He breeds ALWAYS in time to have a litter ready for Christmas. That is his busy time, if he misses the mark and the pups aren't ready to be under the Xmas tree he takes the chance of not selling them all.  He bitches when his dogs aren't in heat on time for Christmas and complains that he needs the money. One Christmas he had two different litters and 20 puppies, the only reason he never did that again was because it was hard work caring for all those puppies and there mommies.  He made a bundle that year over 10K before the Vet bills were paid. Depending on the color he sells them all for different prices.  Usually Chocolates are more than yellows, yellows are more than blacks. He also breeds again in the spring, to keep his cash flow up and this is a busy time for puppy buyers as well.  He can tell you which months puppy's sell and which months they don't! 

If he is not planning a litter but has a lot of inquires he will then breed knowing he has some interests lined up.  There are times when his interests all want females and he ends up with a majority of males or visa-veers.  He surely doesn't want to get stuck with a bunch of puppies he can't get rid of therefore panics when that happens - regardless he always seems to be successful in finding willing buyers, even if he has to spare some profits to advertise.  Let's not forget his purpose for breeding, it is to make money - plain and simple.

His stud dogs are always a dog from someone he knows. No not from his litter, he doesn't inbreed but there is not any careful selection of the dogs. If he meets someone with a male lab, if it has papers - he will use it to stud his next litter, especially if it is chocolate or yellow or had those colors in its litter mates.  Most of his studs are from people, just like DPU describes, as someone who wants a pup from their already wonderful dog.  They take a pup as the studding fee and they are happy.  He takes the litter and sells them.

When Chocolate labs became popular he sought out people who owned a Chocolate lab to breed with his bitch.  When Yellow labs became popular he sought out a yellow labs to breed. Not that it usu sally yielded  any colors in his litters, but in hopes that genes will carry through in litters to come.  When he did get a yellow or chocolate it usually kept a female for his next bitch.

I love my Uncle, he is caring and gentle man.  He does interview his applicants but as far as I know he has never denied anyone.  He loves and cares for all his dogs.  But..  he is a BYB.  He breeds for money and only money, it is his yearly income.  There is nothing more about it, he is not trying to better the breed for sure.

I don't agree with it and I have no say in it.  But that is the definition of BYB to me, my Uncles picture should be next to the words in the dictionary.  To try and redefine a BYB as a responsible breeder you can't.  Any BYB who wants to be a responsible breeder must BECOME a responsible breeder - period.

When I got River my Uncle was so interested in him.  When he found out what I paid for him was shocked - he "half kidding" said, you want to breed him??   We got into our usual disagreement over breeding and he dropped it.  He believes that his dogs are of "good stock" they are healthy and have good homes.  So he too believes he is doing nothing more than providing a wonderful pet lab at a moderate cost and providing income for his family by doing it.   I can't seem to get him to see the ethical side of it without being self righteous, so I gave up a long time ago. 

AgileGSD

Liesje

I don't think there should be a compromise at this point because supply so vastly outweighs demand.  If there was a shortage of dogs...maybe, but there's not.  PUPPIES get euthanized every day for space.  It makes me sick. 

 There is more demand than supply for purebred puppies and toy dogs as far as shelter adoptions are concerned.

I am interested in knowing what those who have very strict definitions on who should be breeding, think that *responsible* people who want puppies (purebred or mixed) and toy dogs are supposed to do when there are not enough in shelters (definitely the case where i live, they are importing dogs from Puerto Rico now due to demand and its still not enough) and there certainly are not nearly enough breeders in existance who can be considered reputable by the definitions described here.  I'm not saying that indescriminate breeding is ok, but I'm just trying to look at things from a realistic perspective and would like to know how others would answer this question.

jenns

AgileGSD

Liesje

I don't think there should be a compromise at this point because supply so vastly outweighs demand.  If there was a shortage of dogs...maybe, but there's not.  PUPPIES get euthanized every day for space.  It makes me sick. 

 There is more demand than supply for purebred puppies and toy dogs as far as shelter adoptions are concerned.

I am interested in knowing what those who have very strict definitions on who should be breeding, think that *responsible* people who want puppies (purebred or mixed) and toy dogs are supposed to do when there are not enough in shelters (definitely the case where i live, they are importing dogs from Puerto Rico now due to demand and its still not enough) and there certainly are not nearly enough breeders in existence who can be considered reputable by the definitions described here.  I'm not saying that indescriminate breeding is ok, but I'm just trying to look at things from a realistic perspective and would like to know how others would answer this question.

 

 

I find this interesting since I live in New Jersey.  Who is importing dogs from Puerto Rico?  There may not be many puppies in the local shelters but there are plenty of dogs who need homes.  There are lots of dogs on pet finder etc.  There are breeders one mile apart for almost any breed in neighboring PA?  Not to mention the breeders right here in NJ too.  Long Island has the North Shore Animal League that has puppy adoptions every day of the week...  plenty of availability too I just did a quick search and they have 35 puppies needing adoption.

http://adopt.animalleague.org/dogs/index.php?primary_breed=&gender=&age=puppy&size=&submit=submit

Free puppies maybe harder to come by for mixed breeds, but that is a good thing in my mind.  Find a purebred you like and go to their club and I am sure you can find a reputable breeder the tristate - State of New Jersey, neighboring NY or PA. 

I just did a search on http://www.1-800-save-a-pet.com/cgi-bin/public/petsearch.cgi/search_dogs_form  for a 50 mile radius from my zip code and came up with 13 pages, 30 dogs or puppies per page for adoption.  Let's see 13X30= 390 dogs just from searching one site, all within a 50 mile radius of my home, one hours drive and I can come home with an adopted puppy, there is no shortage of puppies or dogs in NJ or anywhere for that matter. It's crazy to think so, just do some searching and I can fill your house if so desire.

Good example.  Greater Swiss Mountain Dogs are not a popular breed.  I found two reputable breeders right away, one in PA and one in Maryland.  I ended up getting mine from the Maryland breeder because I found them to be the top breeder of GSMD in the whole US being that the owner was key in bringing the breed into the AKC only in the 1980's.  After I had my River I met a another very reputable breeder 15 minutes from my house, she only breeds to improve the breed and all her dogs are show and she has a waiting list.  She only breeds every other year or so and her dogs are in high demand but.. she exists in NJ and only minutes from my home.   All three breeder for my breed are listed with our club and all have the credentials outlined in this thread. OTOH there are other breeders in PA for Swissies too, none have the credential I expected or that I was looking for but if GSMD breeders can be found so easily imagine what you can find for a Lab or toy breed.  My Pug is another find example of finding a reputable breeder in NJ, I had little difficulty.

I am interested in knowing what those who have very strict definitions on who should be breeding, think that *responsible* people who want puppies (purebred or mixed) and toy dogs are supposed to do when there are not enough in shelters

Take the time to LOOK as opposed to giving up when you don't find the perfect dog within walking distance. They could all come visit Blacksburg. We have 5 shelters, 6 independent rescues, and 4 human societies shelters within a 40 miles radius, and all of them are completely full (as in foster homes almsot beyond capacity, keeping animals in waiting rooms and offices just to give them more time, etc) with new additions being brought in daily. And it isn't just hounds and pitties, we have huskies, goldens, boxers, chihuahuas, dachshunds, dobies, collies, GSDs, dals........ If responsible people want a pup, is it really that hard to ask them to look a bit beyond their front door (if there are no puppies or whatever they want at their local shelter, that is?)

 "Importing", using the vast amount of money the local animal control has...right...or, rather transferring via volunteers and very limited state funds from a worse situation? The same thing goes on all over the states. When a rescue/shelter has room, it takes on dogs from another place where there are too many, or where the dogs are being treated poorly.  For example, shelters in Northenr VA and Maryland tend to do better than we do, so they have more openings. Therefor, they help us out by transferring ("importing" I guess you would day) dogs from out shelters to theirs. 

This whole accusation of "importing" drives me crazy. I still have seen no legitimate info on it. Maybe some very VERY lucky shelters, in rich areas with a very low intake ratio, are able to take on dogs from dire situations overseas, but  99% are so strapped for money already there is no way they could possibly do what a select few people are saying they do.

whtsthfrequency

This whole accusation of "importing" drives me crazy. I still have seen no legitimate info on it. Maybe some very VERY lucky shelters, in rich areas with a very low intake ratio, are able to take on dogs from dire situations overseas, but  99% are so strapped for money already there is no way they could possibly do what a select few people are saying they do.

 I'm pretty sure I posted in reply to you saying this in another thread with links to shelters that import and news articles on importing.

luvmyswissy

 Not to mention the breeders right here in NJ too.  Long Island has the North Shore Animal League that has puppy adoptions every day of the week...  plenty of availability too I just did a quick search and they have 35 puppies needing adoption.

http://adopt.animalleague.org/dogs/index.php?primary_breed=&gender=&age=puppy&size=&submit=submit

Good example.  Greater Swiss Mountain Dogs are not a popular breed.  I found two reputable breeders right away, one in PA and one in Maryland. 

 No one was saying it was hard to find a "reputable" breeder, just that the demand for purebred or toy breed puppies is often greater than what can be filled by reputable breeders. Remember according to many people a trait of a reputable breeder is that they rarely breed ;)

 The 35 puppies were all cute but none were purebreds or toy breed mixes, so they won't help much with owners searching out a purebred or toy puppy.

Oh my word.  I just plugged in my zip code and kept it to thirty miles of my home.  I live in the freakin' middle of nowhere, you understand.

Within fifteen minutes of my house:

• Border Terrier (purebred puppy)
  
• Dachshund mix
• Purebred poodle (young)

Within 25 minutes:

• Five chihuahuas, purebred, various ages including one puppy
• Three rat terriers (puppies)
  
•  Purebred dachshund
• One beautifully groomed poodle (young)
• Boston Terrier

Out to thirty miles, up to a 45 min ride:

• Two purebred cocker spaniels
• One 15 pound "Scottish terrier/BC mix" (yeah, right) that I want to put on my cereal and eat for breakfast, he looks so sweet
• A beagle dachshund mix the size of a Dachs and the shape of a beagle
• One yorkie
• Seven Dachshunds, purebred, various ages including puppy
• Two Min Pins
• One Fiest
• One purebred Boston Terrier
• One Chi/Pap mix (18 mos old)
  
• Two purebred poodles
• One purebred Westie pup
• Two Shih Tzus, one pup and one adult
• 
  

Min Pin Rescue, just 35 min from me, has ten min pins and mixes listed

Italian greyhound rescue, just 40 min from me, has five Iggies listed, all purebred

There's a pair of Brussels Griffons and a Cairn terrier about 45 min from me, four Pomeranians, and a Bichon Frise just beyond that

Pug rescue, just a 45 min drive from me, has SEVENTEEN pugs and puggles listed

This doesn't even include the hundreds of hunting beagles and mixes thereof, many of which are no more than 10 to 13 inches tall and very lightweight, who are also homeless in the area. 

Maybe all the homeless small pets have just gravitated into the black hole of the North Carolinian Upper Piedmont.

jenns

Liesje

I don't think there should be a compromise at this point because supply so vastly outweighs demand.  If there was a shortage of dogs...maybe, but there's not.  PUPPIES get euthanized every day for space.  It makes me sick.

I am interested in knowing what those who have very strict definitions on who should be breeding, think that *responsible* people who want puppies (purebred or mixed) and toy dogs are supposed to do when there are not enough in shelters (definitely the case where i live, they are importing dogs from Puerto Rico now due to demand and its still not enough) and there certainly are not nearly enough breeders in existance who can be considered reputable by the definitions described here.  I'm not saying that indescriminate breeding is ok, but I'm just trying to look at things from a realistic perspective and would like to know how others would answer this question.

 

Again, this is from a GSD perspective, but they are euthanized every day in shelters.  GSD rescues have quite well developed networks for transport.  I've seen people adopt dogs out of rescues and shelters thousands of miles away, and half a dozen volunteers quickly mobilize to transport the dog.  There are also several donors that frequently pay out of their own pockets to move dogs around.

Around here, the supply greatly overwhelms the demand.  The county shelter euthanizes, heck, the rescue has to euthanize for space. 

I think people's expectations and attitudes towards dog ownership need to change.  People want instant gratification.  Most people I know spend way more time picking out a car or planning a family vacation than they do finding and selecting their next dog, and I think that's really sad and a good chunk of the problem, why people will so quickly turn to pet shops and BYBs.  They want something NOW and they don't want to do through any trouble to get it.

I am interested in knowing what those who have very strict definitions on who should be breeding, think that *responsible* people who want puppies (purebred or mixed) and toy dogs are supposed to do when there are not enough in shelters

I worked in a shelter for several years. We had NO puppies. Ever. No one dropped any puppies off. We had very few small dogs. What we had were LOTS of six to eight month old large-breed dogs, mixed and pure. You go around looking at the shelters and rescues they generally don't have puppies either; what they have is adolescent large-breed dogs, mixed and pure. I'm sure it varies by location, but spay-neuter has been widely accepted in many areas- and talking about "supply exceeds demand" isn't true. There is a huge demand for puppies, and limited supply. A huge supply of adolescent dogs and no demand for them at all. Breeding isn't the problem- the problem is people don't know how to turn a puppy into a well-behaved adult. So when the cute puppy turns into obnoxious adolescent it goes to the shelter.

mudpuppy

I worked in a shelter for several years. We had NO puppies. Ever. No one dropped any puppies off. We had very few small dogs. What we had were LOTS of six to eight month old large-breed dogs, mixed and pure. You go around looking at the shelters and rescues they generally don't have puppies either; what they have is adolescent large-breed dogs, mixed and pure. I'm sure it varies by location, but spay-neuter has been widely accepted in many areas- and talking about "supply exceeds demand" isn't true. There is a huge demand for puppies, and limited supply. A huge supply of adolescent dogs and no demand for them at all. Breeding isn't the problem- the problem is people don't know how to turn a puppy into a well-behaved adult. So when the cute puppy turns into obnoxious adolescent it goes to the shelter.

Our shelter has a good share of puppies.  In general, they go pretty fast, but the smaller breeds go the fastest.  Big ones take a while, longer than adult small dogs.

Here's a GSd puppy that just popped up.  He's in a gassing shelter and will be gassed when the shelter is full (if it isn't already)

brookcove

Oh my word.  I just plugged in my zip code and kept it to thirty miles of my home.  I live in the freakin' middle of nowhere, you understand.

Min Pin Rescue, just 35 min from me, has ten min pins and mixes listed

Italian greyhound rescue, just 40 min from me, has five Iggies listed, all purebred

There's a pair of Brussels Griffons and a Cairn terrier about 45 min from me, four Pomeranians, and a Bichon Frise just beyond that

Pug rescue, just a 45 min drive from me, has SEVENTEEN pugs and puggles listed

This doesn't even include the hundreds of hunting beagles and mixes thereof, many of which are no more than 10 to 13 inches tall and very lightweight, who are also homeless in the area. 

Maybe all the homeless small pets have just gravitated into the black hole of the North Carolinian Upper Piedmont.

  But what about people who want say a pug but get turned down by rescue? A friend of mine was turned down by every pug or small breed rescue she contacted because she has intact dogs and/or has GSDs. I adopted an Aussie out to a family who was turned down by Aussie rescue because they don't have a fenced yard, even though they have had Aussies for most of their lives. And the same Aussie rescue turned down a person I know for an Aussie because she had an intact male who was a CH UD dog. He is neutered now but she has frozen on him and I can't help but wonder if in rescue's eyes owning sperm from your neutered dog would be a no-go too ;)

 Only a handful of the dogs you mention are puppies and still only a couple breeds. I know people around here who waited for many months for a young toy breed dog to come into the shelters here and most ended up purchasing one after waiting so long. When you are looking on petfinder you have to keep in mind that most shelters are quite bad at breed IDing and that can be frustrating for people looking for a specific breed. When we were looking for a corgi I found some really strange dogs that were supposedly corgis including one that looked like a Dane mix, several pit bull mixes and lots of dogs who didn't look anything like a corgi.

 I can find a lot of toy/small breed dogs on petfinder at one of our closest rescues now but they are all bought from a dog auction and some have ridiculous adoption fees like $500+. I know at least a couple Berner rescues almost exclusively buy Berners at dog auctions and adopt them out with fees of $1000+. I do not live in a progressive area or a wealthy one and our county pound is high kill (not because there are no homes for the dogs but because it isn't really the pound's job to find them, as is often the case). Yet, this rescue has gone from taking owner turn ins to buying purebreds at auctions. Could it be because there is a demand for these small breeds that no other shelter here is meeting?