The Elitist Attitude.

Benedict.

What gets me is that many on here seem more concerned about breeding dogs then breeding humans!  How many on here have checked back three generations to make sure that there is no hereditary issues with themselves or their spouses?  No heart desease, no diabeties, no mental illness......?  Face it if one is actually willing to compare their selection of a pet with the selection of their spouse then I think that the term elitest is to mild!!!

Mark

bevgo

I am a rescue elitist--LOL

Haha, me too!  Before getting Harry, I thought long and hard and researched my tushy off for more than 6 months before deciding I was ready to handle the responsibility of owning a dog.  It actually never entered my mind to get a dog from anywhere but a shelter or rescue.  And I could not ask for a better dog than my wonderful mixed-breed shelter mutt.

But I have no issues with people who desire to own a purebred dog.  I DO have issues with people getting them from questionable sources, though.  Just yesterday I found out a coworker of mine bought a puppy from a pet store over the weekend.  I felt physically ill when I found this out.  On top of that, this 8 week old pup has already been diagnosed with luxating patellas.  My coworker knew this before dropping goodness-knows-how-much-money for this pup.  The vet who works at this pet store that sells puppies and kittens told my coworker it was a "mild case" and that she shouldn't worry about it.  Now, what made my coworker decide to go ahead and purchase this pup?  Because she was soooooo cute (I see a trend here....)  Now she's freaking out about the possibility of her dog having to have surgery after speaking to another coworker who has a dog with the same condition.  Thank goodness the two of us were able to talk her into taking her pup to another vet (NOT affiliated with a store that sells puppies) for a second opinion.

Mark, I do know that in many counties around the country, county-run shelters will only adopt to residents of that county, however the options do not end there.  The pound is not the only place where you can rescue a dog in need of a forever home.  And for those who want purebred dogs, I'm pretty sure almost every breed out there has a specific rescue dedicated to them.  You don't HAVE to get a mixed breed rescue if you don't want one.  But you can still save a life in need without contributing to the already out of control overpopulation problem.

Marklf

Benedict.

What gets me is that many on here seem more concerned about breeding dogs then breeding humans!  How many on here have checked back three generations to make sure that there is no hereditary issues with themselves or their spouses?  No heart desease, no diabeties, no mental illness......?  Face it if one is actually willing to compare their selection of a pet with the selection of their spouse then I think that the term elitest is to mild!!!

Mark

Oh?  What would you call me, then?  

I never once said that my dog is more important than my spouse, and my dog is fixed so I'm not comparing breeding *my* dog with breeding...well...me.  My point was, and it still stands, that if we are going to get a dog we owe it both to ourselves, and to them to make sure the dog is the best fit possible, and that doing so, according to our own standards, isn't elitism any more than choosing the best spouse possible is elitism.

And we're discussing breeding/hereditary conditions in dogs because, well, this is a dog forum.  I'm quite sure there are forums out there on which to discuss the relative risks of human breeding and hereditary conditions.  This just isn't one of them.   

whtsthfrequency

.they already have their claws on the Plott, and I see no mention of hunting/trailing ability in the "breed standard" Example " Disqualification: Length of ear extending beyond the tip of the nose or hanging bloodhound-like, in long, pendulous fashion" Holy Moses, if the ears extend beyonf the tip if the nose but it's the best bear and coondog around, are you telling me it isn't a top Plott? Bleh.

You do know that the Plott standard wasn't written by the AKC, right?  It was written by Plott enthusiasts.  

When I was at the Hound Specialty a few weeks ago, I talked to several Plott people.  What I loved the most about those people was that they SHOWED their Working Dogs, they didn't work their Show Dogs.  These people are passionate about their dogs.  The breed standard is there so that the dogs don't lose type.  It does no good to have a Plott that looks like a Black & Tan, or a Walker. 

 I'm not a huge fan of the AKC but don't blame them for the Plott's standard.
 

Marklf

Truley,

"And by proved, I too am not talking about the show ring, proved for my breed is shutzhund or herding, show ring last for me."

So if it is ok for you to decide that shulzhund or herding constitutues being "proved" why would it be wrong for someone else to decide that demonstating a suitable temperment to be a family pet constitutes being "proved"?

Mark

I, and several others, have already stated why we think just demonstrating a suitable temperment is not enough to warrent breeding. I turn it back to you, show us why it should be considered.

And you said that people just want pets, they just want a dog for "looks" and not "traits" of their breed, well I agree with most everyone here, pets are sitting by the thousands in shelters and rescues. Breed rescues usually have 10 or more dogs at a time, I actually was dealing with several rescues before we got Kord, heck I was at the shelter and city pound weekly. I did not need or want a puppy, I was perfectly willing to take in an older dog, my family took the choice out of my hands, I could have refused their gift, but chose not to. If I had just a tad more space I could convince my landlord that I need another, he would more than likely grant me my request right now, but I know the limits on our space,  so until then, 1 dog.

I know my breeds traits, it's why I love the breed. I have had this breed, in pure and mix form all my life, even mixed in a little griffin/sheltie mix, an old english sheepdog, a collie, and a god only knows what over the years, but the GSD is my love. Kord is named after the first GS I can remember my parents having as a child, the one that made me fall in love, the one that cermented in my mind the traits of his kind. My Kord, well now, he is so different from that namesake it is not even funny. Different in looks, personality, temperment, but on the whole, they do have the same traits. Another thing that has changed over the years, is the health of the breed and the look. I am partial to german lines, and I love the look of the sables, the darker the better. But the health issue's? oh my lord, they are so bad. So I will always look to a responsible, respectable, health testing breeder should I ever decide that I want another puppy. I made sure that my breeder tested, both of Kord's parents follow the standard and are approved, yes approved, for breeding, but that does not just mean, hips, elbows and eyes, it also means temperment and structure.

Both the sire and the dam of my dog carry KKL1a and KKL1:

http://home.flash.net/~astroman/survey.html

Does that make my dog superior? Not by a long shot, it just upped the odd's to my favor that I would get a sound, healthy "pet".

Benedict

Yes kind of off topic LOL, but an interesting question and one I'd like to answer, if you don't mind me quoting this again as the start of a new thread?

And thanks, Truley. :) 

I also find it interesting because the same emotions are at play with humans and dogs.  In your post it was exactly my thought up until the end when it took the wrong turn for me.  I am not anti-"elitist" just as I am not anti-mother.  Both have roles to want the best possible outcomes in life, but it comes down to individual choices and the wants and needs for the individual.  Too bad that "til death do us part" is not honored and there is divorce. 

Marklf

As I posted above if one is attempting to adopt from a county/city pound inthe state of Virginia they cannot adopt a PUPPY or any other UN-ALTERED animal if they do not live in or next to the city/county that the pound is located in!  That is covered in the Code of Virginia 3.1-796.96

Mark

This is the code you're referring to: 

"4. Adoption by any other person, provided that such person has read and signed a statement specifying that he has never been convicted of animal cruelty, neglect, or abandonment, and provided that no animal may be adopted by any person who is not a resident of the county or city for which the pound is operated, or of an adjacent political subdivision, unless the animal is first sterilized, and the pound may require that the sterilization be done at the expense of the person adopting the animal; or"

First, a puppy can be altered and then adopted out.  Richmond's shelter has pups altered as soon as they are the right weight.  So a dog just over 6 weeks can be adopted out to someone outside the adjacent counties and states once that pup is altered.  Would you not agree that a 7 week old puppy is a puppy?

Also, this doesn't cover placements that happen where a rescue or SPCA takes the dog and then placed from there.

"1. Release to any humane society, animal shelter, or other releasing agency within the Commonwealth, provided that each humane society, animal shelter, or other releasing agency obtains a signed statement from each of its directors, operators, staff, or animal caregivers specifying that each individual has never been convicted of animal cruelty, neglect, or abandonment and updates such statements as changes occur; "

  "For purposes of recordkeeping, release of an animal by a pound to a pound, animal shelter or other releasing agency shall be considered a transfer and not an adoption. If the animal is not first sterilized, the responsibility for sterilizing the animal transfers to the receiving entity."

It has to do with sterilization, thank goodness someone is making sure these dogs are sterilized, or at least TRYING to.  Compliance in my county is not so great due to funds. 

Benedict,

"I never once said that my dog is more important than my spouse, and my dog is fixed so I'm not comparing breeding *my* dog with breeding...well...me."

Please re-read your post!  You made a direct comparison between breeding a dog and a human!

"My point was, and it still stands, that if we are going to get a dog we owe it both to ourselves, and to them to make sure the dog is the best fit possible, and that doing so, according to our own standards, isn't elitism any more than choosing the best spouse possible is elitism."

I do not disagree with that statement at all!!!  However it is "elitist" to demand that others also follow "our own standards" when selecting or breeding their dogs! 

"And we're discussing breeding/hereditary conditions in dogs because, well, this is a dog forum.  I'm quite sure there are forums out there on which to discuss the relative risks of human breeding and hereditary conditions.  This just isn't one of them."

Sorry but you were the one that brought that perspective to this discussion I just responded to your post!   

Mark

Marklf

I am referring to those whose breeding practices are more concerned with producing a confirmation title then producing a dog that is of suitable temperament for a family pet.  All "show breeders" produce dogs that cannot compete in the ring so they sell them as "pets" but the criteria that they used for selecting which dogs to breed to produce that "show dog" may not be the best criteria to use for selecting which dogs to breed for a good "pet" dog.

I agree with you, to an extent.

While at a show, I passed a woman with several ShihTzus in crates, on a cart.  One of them was yapping viciously at anyone who walked by.  The woman smiled at me and said "Good show dogs don't always make good pets."  I was appalled then and still am.

Conversely, I prefer primitive dogs with a temperment completely different than that considered "pet" temperment.  I don't want to see my Azawakhs, Pharaoh Hounds, Salukis, Sloughis, Filas or Ovcharkas, etc, turn into sycophants, or even into the loveable family pet.  The temperment is part of the standard, as far as I'm concerned.  I do my research into whatever dogs I am interested in.  Some of them, even though I adore the breeds,  I know I could never own. 

Fortunately in the breed I own, the fanciers and hobbyists are concerned with the total dog.  Most Ch. Pharaohs are also lure coursers, or agility dogs or rally dogs.  Some, including mine, have been given the opportunity to test for herding instinct as well.  If it were legal in my state, I'd open course my dog as well, I know several PH owners that do that with great success.

The other part of "Pet" dogs is the owners.  The owners need to match the dog with their lifestyle.  Don't expect to run marathons with your dog if he/she is a brachiocephalic breed.  Don't expect your Lab puppy or Husky puppy to be a couch potato.  Don't expect your hound to always respect the boundaries of your property whilst on the hunt.  Don't expect your Pekingnese to always be quiet. 

Owners need to choose a companion that suits their lifestyle, not a companion that has looks they like, and then expect that dog to adapt completely to them.

 

Believe it or not, there is a doggy day care in our area for purebred Goldens ONLY. Out in the boonies, no less. The place is immaculate, tons of green grass and open space, you name it, etc. They also do grooming. They are Golden breeders, as well. This is the epitome of Elite.

Do I bring my two purebred, perfect Goldens there? ...nope.

DPU

Benedict

Yes kind of off topic LOL, but an interesting question and one I'd like to answer, if you don't mind me quoting this again as the start of a new thread?

And thanks, Truley. :) 

I also find it interesting because the same emotions are at play with humans and dogs.  In your post it was exactly my thought up until the end when it took the wrong turn for me.  I am not anti-"elitist" just as I am not anti-mother.  Both have roles to want the best possible outcomes in life, but it comes down to individual choices and the wants and needs for the individual.  Too bad that "for richer or poorer" is not honored and there is divorce. 

David, I cannot stop anyone from breeding their dog, I can offer suggestions, facts and my opinion, but in the end they are going to do whatever they want. But, and this is where it all came down to elitist or not, I cannot, in good conscious, support the breeding of sweet, cute, friendly pets for no other reason than they want to, I'm sorry, I just can't do it.

Marklf

What gets me is that many on here seem more concerned about breeding dogs then breeding humans! 

There aren't 3-4 million humans being put to death every year in this country because someone didn't want them. When children are born with birth defects, there isn't a place where you can just turn them in and make it someone else's problem. When people move, they don't leave their children behind, tied up in the back yard to an unknown fate. When people decide to get a dog, they don't take their children to someone else to have them be put to death.

People ARE concerned about human breeding, but let's get realistic here.
 

Xerxes

Marklf

I am referring to those whose breeding practices are more concerned with producing a confirmation title then producing a dog that is of suitable temperament for a family pet.  All "show breeders" produce dogs that cannot compete in the ring so they sell them as "pets" but the criteria that they used for selecting which dogs to breed to produce that "show dog" may not be the best criteria to use for selecting which dogs to breed for a good "pet" dog.

 

 

I agree with you, to an extent.

While at a show, I passed a woman with several ShihTzus in crates, on a cart.  One of them was yapping viciously at anyone who walked by.  The woman smiled at me and said "Good show dogs don't always make good pets."  I was appalled then and still am.

Conversely, I prefer primitive dogs with a temperment completely different than that considered "pet" temperment.  I don't want to see my Azawakhs, Pharaoh Hounds, Salukis, Sloughis, Filas or Ovcharkas, etc, turn into sycophants, or even into the loveable family pet.  The temperment is part of the standard, as far as I'm concerned.  I do my research into whatever dogs I am interested in.  Some of them, even though I adore the breeds,  I know I could never own. 

Fortunately in the breed I own, the fanciers and hobbyists are concerned with the total dog.  Most Ch. Pharaohs are also lure coursers, or agility dogs or rally dogs.  Some, including mine, have been given the opportunity to test for herding instinct as well.  If it were legal in my state, I'd open course my dog as well, I know several PH owners that do that with great success.

The other part of "Pet" dogs is the owners.  The owners need to match the dog with their lifestyle.  Don't expect to run marathons with your dog if he/she is a brachiocephalic breed.  Don't expect your Lab puppy or Husky puppy to be a couch potato.  Don't expect your hound to always respect the boundaries of your property whilst on the hunt.  Don't expect your Pekingnese to always be quiet. 

Owners need to choose a companion that suits their lifestyle, not a companion that has looks they like, and then expect that dog to adapt completely to them.

 

I do not disagree with anything that you stated in that post!!!!  In fact if people are really concerned about the amount of dogs in shelters and/or the "standards" of their particular breed it would seem to me that a more effective approach would be to educate percpective dog owners to select a type of dog that is compatable with their life style rather then just condemning people that are breeding healthy dogs for people to own as pets!

Mark

FourIsCompany

Marklf

What gets me is that many on here seem more concerned about breeding dogs then breeding humans! 

 

There aren't 3-4 million humans being put to death every year in this country because someone didn't want them. When children are born with birth defects, there isn't a place where you can just turn them in and make it someone else's problem. When people move, they don't leave their children behind, tied up in the back yard to an unknown fate. When people decide to get a dog, they don't take their children to someone else to have them be put to death.

People ARE concerned about human breeding, but let's get realistic here.
 

Well, uhm, yeah, they're not being put to sleep but they are rotting away in substandard foster care and not being adopted because people don't want them, they'd rather fly to China and buy themselves a little girl, but that's another thread altogether.   

"I'm not a huge fan of the AKC but don't blame them for the Plott's standard."

If the AKC really wanted to eliminate hereditary problems in the breeds it could do so fairly quickly!  All it would need to do is require breed specific health screening for all dogs that it registers!  Any dog that fails its genetic screening would lose it "AKC registered" status!   Too many people assume incorrectly that by getting a dog that is "AKC registered" they are getting a good healthy example of a particular breed, the AKC profits from this misconception so unfortunately I do not see them doing anything to change that anytime soon!

Mark