Is Atheism a Belief System? (4iC)

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Posted : 3/3/2008 11:47:29 AM

For me, Faith is not the absence of reason. Reason and intellect can have much to do with establishing faith. If we use the example of the tightrope walker and his manager, I am sure the manager had a lot of evidence or reasons for his belief that Blondin was capable of walking across while carrying him, he did not just blindly jump on a stranger's back. He had enough evidence and personal experience to believe and then the faith was the last part that enabled him to put his belief (based on his experience of Blondin and his evidence of Blondin's ability) and his faith(since he could not KNOW for certain that Blondin would not fall, that the wind would not dislodge them in the crossing nor that some other incident might occur that would cause them to fall) together and make the crossing.

So for me faith is not blind belief, devoid of any reason or evidence, but there is a point where one must act on what one cannot know for certain.

anyway apologies for going OT

Bonita of Bwana

Posted : 3/3/2008 12:17:00 PM

UndefinedMelody

I'll be watching this thread..I'm interested in hearing what everyone says. I struggle with what to call myself.

I wouldn't call myself anything except when people ask me what I believe I need an answer, lol. I don't know if there is a God or not, and I don't care. I live my life to my own standards and morals and I am a good person.

I couldn't make it through that video though, the caller was making my head hurt.

I surely agree with what you had to say in many ways. I always believed in God, though Thick and Thin but faltered greatly about 3 years ago. After everything that has happened in my life I was dealt such a huge blow I could not bear it anymore, I really felt IF there was a God he apparently had it out for me, despite having lived my life as honestly and lovingly as I could. Taking care of Both of our Moms until thier deaths, 8 and 14 years keeping things friendly with my ex inlaws, inspite the realy rotten treatment. Making sure I was able to care for and do for my daughers so I would not have to hear about it endlssly from the DH, caring for his kids and grandkids now mine (5 kids 10 grands)... I had worked soooo hard that the blow dealt was impossible to understand. I tried to take my life but failed. Later I got in therapy and my therapist likes to have folks take a spiritual blessing slip for encouragement at the end of sessions I always passed. Finally one day she asked why? I said after everything and as hard as I had always tried to be a good person for God to deal me the hand I had either meant there was no God or I was so uniportant to him he had to let me know by crashing my world. She had no reply. I am still mad at God, less and at the Universe and find mysel at times lonely for the reltionship I had grown up with. Is there a God, I may never know but I will teach the tales to my grands as I believ life is richer when you believe.

Bonita of Bwana

She had no anwser for me , now here it is 3 years later and

tashakota

Posted : 3/3/2008 12:17:14 PM

One time I found a little scale insect with a tiny little covering that looked like a delicate seashell made of lace. How could something so beautiful pop up somewhere its beauty was so unlikely to be appreciated? I guess I find it hard to get my mind around the idea that anything exists without a purpose, and sometimes things don't seem to have a purpose much beyond being beautiful. I'm sure the scale insect could have survived just as well with a boring old covering like all the other scale insects.

Well, it may have been because years and years ago, one male scale bug had a mutant spot of color on his shell. He found more mates for some reason than other of his kind, so his mutant trait carried on. The females born to his mates had a spot of color on them, so all of her progeny also did but they now also preferred or sought out similar colored mates. So now you have two colored scale bugs mating and producing maybe a bit more color.

It may be because one scale bug many years ago blended better in a certain area of habitat because he had a mutant change in his covering and so he survived when others did not. He found mates, who bore progeny with the same mutation, who then blended better than the non-mutants and so they survived and multiplied more, etc....

As an agnostic, I don't believe or have faith in Creation, because I feel that science has proven and shown me the paths that we, as miraculous as we are, evolved along just like the beautiful scale bug.

Xerxes

Posted : 3/3/2008 12:54:07 PM

DPU
FourIsCompany

DPU
There was no threat of physical violence

At the end of the video, the caller says, "How 'bout I just come down there and punch your fat head in for Jesus..." and the call was disconnected.

That was passion for his belief talking, not a real threat.

Actually that was the callers frustration at not being able to "disprove" or catch the host in a bit of semantic wordplay. Regardless of what it was, it was a threat, and if that very same threat were issued on a "family forum" it would be censored and the issuer of that threat probably suspended.

Xerxes

Posted : 3/3/2008 1:03:57 PM

tashakota

One time I found a little scale insect with a tiny little covering that looked like a delicate seashell made of lace. How could something so beautiful pop up somewhere its beauty was so unlikely to be appreciated? I guess I find it hard to get my mind around the idea that anything exists without a purpose, and sometimes things don't seem to have a purpose much beyond being beautiful. I'm sure the scale insect could have survived just as well with a boring old covering like all the other scale insects.
Well, it may have been because years and years ago, one male scale bug had a mutant spot of color on his shell. He found more mates for some reason than other of his kind, so his mutant trait carried on. The females born to his mates had a spot of color on them, so all of her progeny also did but they now also preferred or sought out similar colored mates. So now you have two colored scale bugs mating and producing maybe a bit more color.
OR
It may be because one scale bug many years ago blended better in a certain area of habitat because he had a mutant change in his covering and so he survived when others did not. He found mates, who bore progeny with the same mutation, who then blended better than the non-mutants and so they survived and multiplied more, etc....
As an agnostic, I don't believe or have faith in Creation, because I feel that science has proven and shown me the paths that we, as miraculous as we are, evolved along just like the beautiful scale bug.

Great answer.

Remember humans are one of the few that appreciate the aesthetics of objects. In other words: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To many people the sunset or sunrise is a beautiful event. To many others it is a signal that night is coming and with it the night predators. Or that day time is coming and with it there are plants to be harvested, hunts to go on and roofs to thatch.

To some animals the song of a particular bird means: STAY OUT, though humans might find that song "pretty" or an indicator that there is prey nearby.

Beauty, in and of itself, is not a reasonable argument for the existence of a deity.

Chuffy

Posted : 3/3/2008 6:21:38 PM

corvus
Chuffy, have you seen the human body exhibition where you get to see real human bodies preserved with this weird plastic?

Unfortunately not! Lucky you Smile

corvus
One time I found a little scale insect with a tiny little covering that looked like a delicate seashell made of lace. How could something so beautiful pop up somewhere its beauty was so unlikely to be appreciated? I guess I find it hard to get my mind around the idea that anything exists without a purpose, and sometimes things don't seem to have a purpose much beyond being beautiful. I'm sure the scale insect could have survived just as well with a boring old covering like all the other scale insects.

It's time to get out my head now, before you SERIOUSLY spook me out Smile

chelsea_b

Posted : 3/3/2008 11:00:09 PM

I'm having a tough time with this "lack of belief" definition for atheism. To me, atheists are people who don't think god exists, and agnostics are people who don't believe either way. Agnostics are not undecided (implying that they will one day decide there is or isn't a god).

Obviously this doesn't prove anything, and I feel like a 10 year old posting definitions for words, but Merriam-Webster seems to agree with me.

Atheist:

: one who believes that there is no deity

Agnostic:

1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

Therefore..atheism is a belief, and does require faith...whereas agnosticism is a lack of belief. My perception, anyway.

And btw, the assumption that people who say atheism requires faith are theists? Totally unfounded... I've never been religious at all, never believed in god. But I think it does take a certain amount of faith to NOT believe in ghosts, NOT believe in leprechauns, to NOT believe in anything that is impossible to prove doesn't exist (lord, did that sentence have enough negatives in it? lol).

corvus

Posted : 3/4/2008 4:55:07 AM

Hey, I'm a zoologist. Evolution rules just about every thought about the natural world that enters my head. All the same, if I find something pretty and I can't find a satisfactory reason for it to be pretty (sorry, "for some reason it was more successful" doesn't quite cut it for me), then I think it's magic. That's just me. It's not an argument for a deity, it just makes me think of deities. It makes me feel very small and not very smart or knowledgable, which is a wonderful feeling and makes me wonder if someone wiser and smarter than me somewhere is watching me and marvelling at the beauty of me even as I marvel at the beauty of something so much smaller and insignificant to me.

Evolution has answers for most things in the world, but not everything, in my experience. Maybe it's just that we don't understand enough to see the answers, or we just haven't found the answer yet, but that doesn't mean there is one. I think there are a lot of organisms out there that could look differently, maybe less beautiful, and still be just as successful. That's just my opinion, and maybe I'm wrong, but I like to think things are beautiful for me. That's more about the kind of person I am than whether there is a god or not. There's a god for me because I'm the kind of person that likes to think beauty exists for me. Maybe there's no god for you because you don't need to have those silly little lies in your life. It matters to me, though, so I choose to believe because it makes me happier. I have no issue if you choose not to belive because that makes you happier. Everyone is different and some people need gods, or fairies, or spirits, or magic.

Chuffy

Posted : 3/5/2008 6:09:51 PM

chelsea_b
I'm having a tough time with this "lack of belief" definition for atheism. To me, atheists are people who don't think god exists, and agnostics are people who don't believe either way. Agnostics are not undecided (implying that they will one day decide there is or isn't a god).

Obviously this doesn't prove anything, and I feel like a 10 year old posting definitions for words, but Merriam-Webster seems to agree with me.

Atheist:

: one who believes that there is no deity

Agnostic:

1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

Therefore..atheism is a belief, and does require faith...whereas agnosticism is a lack of belief. My perception, anyway.

And btw, the assumption that people who say atheism requires faith are theists? Totally unfounded... I've never been religious at all, never believed in god. But I think it does take a certain amount of faith to NOT believe in ghosts, NOT believe in leprechauns, to NOT believe in anything that is impossible to prove doesn't exist (lord, did that sentence have enough negatives in it? lol).

I was basing my posts on the definitions in the video clip in the OP. That is, broadly, that atheist relates to belief ("I don't believe in God";) and agnostic relates to knowledge ("I don't know if there is a God";). Those 2 statements are quite different and certainly gave me pause to think.

Chuffy

Posted : 3/5/2008 6:13:39 PM

corvus
I think there are a lot of organisms out there that could look differently, maybe less beautiful, and still be just as successful.

You know what? I disagree!!!!!

I think that "pretty" things are more successful BECAUSE they are more beautiful. Beauty gets you noticed. I wonder why? Is it not arrogant of us to assume that it is only us humans who appreciate beauty?

rwbeagles

Posted : 3/5/2008 6:33:54 PM

I don't know that it's arrogant...

Peacocks are an example of beauty being used to attract mates...IMO that does not mean a peacock could look at a Van Gogh and "see beauty" or think anything at all about it. They are hard wired to see the "beauty" that is required for the species to survive, and we don't know that they are seeing "beauty" do we? We know only that they are attracted to certain patterns colors of plumage....for all we know the plumage could translate in their brains to the word "sex" or "strong genes". It worked for them so they continue on as a species in spite of the hardships the plumage causes to the male. Ditto the Bowerbird or Bird of Paradise....their "beauty" has a purpose and it's very specific...and very species specific.

Beauty to me has nothing to do with God or Gods. Nothing at all.

eta: ditto the above for "ugliness"