Is Atheism a Belief System? (4iC)

Interesting interview. It seems that the caller faltered here and there a bit when asked a question based on his own ability to reason. And, if you'll notice, when the caller couldn't reasonably debate or ran out of pat answers, he resort to a threat of physical violence.

I think, however, it is difficult for most people to apply the rules of hard evidence and concrete concepts to a number of discussions, not just the existence of God.

UndefinedMelody

I don't know if there is a God or not, and I don't care. I live my life to my own standards and morals and I am a good person.

I think (from your words) that you would be considered and agnostic.

Atheist: there is no God

Agnostic : Does not know, there might be a God and there might not be a God

Theist: believes in a God

Wow, I don't like that bald guy at all. He is just as arrogant about his beliefs as fundamentalist Christians, or any other hard-core religious group.

Actually that whole video just kind of annoyed me. lol.

I think he's really wrong about agnostics being atheists. Every definition of atheist I've ever heard or read says it's someone who denies that god exists (IOW, they "know" that god doesn't exist..just like religious people "know" god does exist), and agnostics don't claim to know. That's me to a T. I don't know either way. I don't believe either way. It's not that I don't care, or don't think about it, I just don't have a need to "know". I think it would be really arrogant for me, being who I am and having the experiences I've had, to believe or claim to know whether god exists.

I think Atheism DOES take a leap of faith. They have faith that they are correct. They have faith that miracles don't exist, that angels don't exist, that heaven and hell don't exist. You know why it's faith? Because they can't prove there's no god, no heaven, no hell, no angels. It's impossible to prove that. As an old friend of mine used to say "you can't prove a negative," at least when it comes to things like religion..ghosts..and the loch ness monster.

I don't think that people who are part of a religion, organised or otherwise, necessarily must believe there is a god beyond a shadow of a doubt or some such. I personally know of one person who told me they did not believe in god but felt the moral values taught at their church were important, and so went to church every Sunday and was quite involved in the church community. I also know people who go to church every Sunday but never really know their god beyond a sense of duty to turn up at the church every week. I know someone who likes the moral values of Buddhists and sometimes goes to the local Buddhist temple just to meditate and have some quiet time for reflection, although they don't live strictly by Buddhist codes and don't attend temple regularly. And then there's people like me, who believe with unaccountable certainty that there is a god even with no proof, but don't count themselves a part of any religion. 

Personally, just for conversation's sake, I evenutally decided there was a god purely because I found so many things in nature to be awed by and find beautiful, and I couldn't really find a good reason why evolution would consistently come up with such beautiful, perfect solutions to just about everything that filled me with such wonder. Why should I even care? I guess a lot of people don't, but seeing beauty everywhere made me think there must be some grand mind behind it all that had a similar appreciation for beauty that humans do. Nonetheless, I find myself increasingly frustrated and disgusted with all religions and refuse to have much to do with any of them if I can help it.

So I think this bizarre assertion that theists know there is a god whereas atheists don't know there isn't a god is hypocritical. Not that I think atheists have to know there is no god, just that I think theists don't have to know there is a god. I'm sure many theists often wonder whether there is actually a god after all from time to time. I was taught that it was natural to question these things. I would expect atheists to sometimes be a little unsure or occasionally experience doubt as well. It's human nature, really. I consider an agnostic to be someone who doesn't feel they know enough to commit either way. If you're ready to say there's no god, then you're an atheist, even if you're not sure of that fact. You're sure enough to voice that opinion. If you're not sure enough to voice and opinion either way, you're agnostic. Those are two different things and they are mutually exclusive in that you can't be atheist and agnostic simultaneously at a given moment. But sure, you can swing from atheist to agnostic to theist and back again or whatever as much as you like, but at any given time you will be agnostic, athiest or theist. I would consider you agnostic, though, if you were still too unsure to voice an opinion, even if you're leaning one way or the other.

Did that make any sense?

Anyway, I do think atheism is a belief system, because it requires you to have thought about it and decided there is no god. It doesn't matter your reasons or how strong your convictions or how open-minded you are. You believe there's no god, although you can't really prove it inconclusively. That's the beauty of belief systems, I guess.

I watched a series of documentaries from Richard Dawkins a while back, and felt thoroughly sorry for the poor guy. He's what I'd call an atheist extremist. It really angered him that so many people believed in a god(s) that there was no evidence for, and he only ever saw the bad effects religion had. He would argue until he was blue in the face and people would just shrug and say things like "I hope you find peace", which would just anger him even more. I thought, it must be a wearing existence to be so annoyed, frustrated, and angry that so many people didn't see things the way you did. And it's no different, really, to any of the extremists from any other religion that only see things from one perspective.

chelsea_b

I think it would be really arrogant for me, being who I am and having the experiences I've had, to believe or claim to know whether god exists.

I just wanted to say I really liked this bit

A phrase that sticks out in my mind from one of Bernard Cornwell's books (Novel of Arthur series), I'm paraphrasing here, but it's something like, "We are to the gods as mice in the thatch and we do best to keep our heads down and not be noticed".

Lets say that every word of the Bible as we know it today is true.  Take a look at Job.  He was "noticed" for being a good person and look what happened/was allowed to happen to him.

Essentially, it doesn't MATTER [to me] if there is a god.  I am not going to be a better person just because I believe there is someone watching me.  God, or the concept of God, is I believe, more of a comfort than anything else.  In times of hardship, or even when faced with the prospect of death....   

Being an atheist is a belief system.  I think some atheists are just as religious (in their own way) as theists.  

corvus

Personally, just for conversation's sake, I evenutally decided there was a god purely because I found so many things in nature to be awed by and find beautiful, and I couldn't really find a good reason why evolution would consistently come up with such beautiful, perfect solutions to just about everything that filled me with such wonder. Why should I even care? I guess a lot of people don't, but seeing beauty everywhere made me think there must be some grand mind behind it all that had a similar appreciation for beauty that humans do. Nonetheless, I find myself increasingly frustrated and disgusted with all religions and refuse to have much to do with any of them if I can help it.

I am loving this post, I haven't finished yet.  I hit REPLY on reading this paragraph.

This is me, on some days.  You don't even have to go to nature to find this complexity and astonishing beauty.  You don't even have to stir from your chair.  Have you ever even just looked at the veins on your inner wrist and tried to visualise the complex network of them throughout your body?  And that is just ONE of the miracles that happen every second in your body... each one duplicated in every other human.... and every "thing" has it's own set of complex working miracles happening moment by moment, breath by breath, almost unnoticed and unappreciated.....

I actually disagree with you chelsea, that atheists believe mircales don't exist and theists believe they do.  I think its the other way round.  Atheists DO believe in miracles.  See above paragraph - is not your body an example of a miracle?  Atheists believe that happened by accident!  That it is just a happy coincidence that we are alive!  Out of the googleplex of possibilities how it all could have turned out, Earth has just  the right mix of chemicals for Life to exist.... and it exists in myriads of forms.  No one engineered that - it just happened! A miracle.  It's almost easier to believe that Someone DID engineer it all.  Corvus says she finds it nigh impossible to not believe this.  Am I making sense?

corvus

but seeing beauty everywhere made me think there must be some grand mind behind it all that had a similar appreciation for beauty that humans do.

This puts me in mind of the speech by Douglas Adams - paraphrasing again, but basically, Man is a tool maker.  He makes tools for a purpose.  So when he looks around and sees the world "tailor made" for him to live in, he leaps to the assumption that it must have been "made" by someone.  And he envisions another tool maker, like himself, only greater and more powerful - unimaginably powerful.  This is rather like you and I.  We see the beauty around us and find it difficult to accept that such beauty can happen without design.  And if it happened by design, it must have been design by someone.  Probably... Someone like us...?

So we find it hard to accept that these "miracles" happen by accident.  They are so complex and so beautiful and so amazing.  Yet, the "being" that created them would have to be even MORE complex and and amazing than that.  So which is harder to believe - that this world popped into existence spontaneously?  Or that a higher being, even more complex, popped into existance spontaneously?  Hmm.

Begs the question - if there is a God, where did he come from?  Was Earth created on a whim?

Interesting responses! Thank you.

Ron2 - I also thought it was interesting and telling that the caller resorted to violence when he couldn’t persuade the atheist to see his way. Many wars have been started for the same reason.

UndefinedMelody – I didn’t accept a label for the longest time because I thought (as many people clearly do) that Atheists hold a belief that there is NOT a God. It may seem a subtle difference, but the real definition is that they don’t hold a belief about a God. Atheism is lack of belief in God. And if people listened to the video, he talked about fairies and leprechauns. Do people who don’t believe in Leprechauns have a belief system around it? No. It’s a lack of belief.

Dgriego – It’s not quite as simple as you have stated.

Atheists have no belief in the existence of God or other deities. (absence of belief)

Agnostics claim that it is not possible to know of the existence or non-existence of God. (they have a belief that we cannot know whether or not a God exists)

When I first felt I wanted my own label just to have discussions with people, I called myself an agnostic, because I don’t think we have enough information to know, but as I have discussed it and searched my own thoughts, I realized that I don’t really have a belief about the existence of a God, so that means I’m an Atheist. I have no belief in God. There is no faith involved any more than I have faith that there aren’t hot pink elephants.

I would also like to note that Atheism doesn’t speak to a belief in angels, heaven, hell, or any other spiritual entity or idea. It’s ONLY a lack of belief in a God. So there are very spiritual atheists, who believe in the spiritual realm and even some kind of existence after death. I am one.

Corvus – I agree with you that a belief in God and religion are 2 entirely different and separate things. They are connected for many people, but one can certainly exist without the other.

corvus

So I think this bizarre assertion that theists know there is a god whereas atheists don't know there isn't a god is hypocritical. Not that I think atheists have to know there is no god, just that I think theists don't have to know there is a god.

I agree with you. It's not pure certainty (as was discussed in the video), it's about belief. Theists have a belief in a God and Atheists have no such belief. That's the difference, in the simplest terms.

So, if you don’t believe in the flying spaghetti monster, is that also a “belief system”?

I totally agree with you! I have seen some pretty militant Atheists, full of anger, resentment and hatred and it’s just as sad as any other militant “believer”.

Chuffy

I think some atheists are just as religious (in their own way) as theists.

Some are, certainly, just as some Theists are over-the-top. But that’s not inherent in being an Atheist any more than self-righteousness is inherent in being religious. It all depends on the person. And it’s dangerous to think of all Atheists or Theists as anything.

Chuffy

is not your body an example of a miracle?  Atheists believe that happened by accident!  That it is just a happy coincidence that we are alive! 

This is incorrect. You're affixing beliefs to Atheism that aren't there. It's no wonder people think Atheism is a belief system when people keep telling them what they believe. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in God. It doesn't speak to how we got here or how we were formed. JUST a lack of belief in God. Two Atheists can very well have different ideas about our creation. Creation is NOT included in the term Atheist.  Many Atheists share beliefs about science and evolution, but the term Atheist does not describe those beliefs. They might believe in another intelligence within human beings that started it all (not something greater, but we, ourselves). They might believe aliens transplanted us here. There is no shared belief among atheists about how we got here.

For those who think Atheism is a belief system, I will say that how we decide what to believe and not believe is our belief system (just like everyone else), but Atheism is a RESULT of our belief system, not a belief system in itself. If that makes sense. 

FourIsCompany

Chuffy

is not your body an example of a miracle?  Atheists believe that happened by accident!  That it is just a happy coincidence that we are alive! 

 

This is incorrect. You're affixing beliefs to Atheism that aren't there. It's no wonder people think Atheism is a belief system when people keep telling them what they believe. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in God. It doesn't speak to how we got here or how we were formed. JUST a lack of belief in God. Two Atheists can very well have different ideas about our creation. Creation is NOT included in the term Atheist.  Many Atheists share beliefs about science and evolution, but the term Atheist does not describe those beliefs.

I don't understand you. 

My understanding is that an atheist does not believe there is a god.  Or Higher Being, or Creator or what have you.  Surely an atheist can't believe that Life was designed and created by God if they don't believe s/he/it exists?  I'll concede that there are many possibilities as to how we got here, and the rest of Life on Earth.  But if you are an atheist, I don't believe the "Creation" idea is one of them....?  How can it be?

Edit to add - I'm not disagreeing per se, or picking a squabble.  I would genuinely like you to clarify

Chuffy

Surely an atheist can't believe that Life was designed and created by God if they don't believe s/he/it exists? 

True. But as to how we were "created" (by a big bang, or aliens or whatever) or came to be here, there is no shared belief by Atheists. Some believe it was an "accident" as you said, some believe aliens planted us here, some have other thoughts about it and some are quite agnostic about it (we can't know how we came to be here). My point is that whereas God creating us IS a part of the Theist belief system,  there is no common belief among Atheists as to how we came to be here.

When I said "creation" in my previous post, I simply meant how we came to be here, not "Creation" (big C) as the bible explains it. Sorry for the confusion.

Does that clarify?

FourIsCompany

But as to how we were "created" (by a big bang, or aliens or whatever) or came to be here, there is no shared belief by Atheists. Some believe it was an "accident" as you said, some believe aliens planted us here

Yes it does, thank you.  I hadn't even considered that aspect.  My point of view is, even then, presumably either "Someone" created the aliens, or THEY evolved somehow, or something else entirely.... to me, paring it down to it's barest bones, it either "accident" or "design". 

Unless of course, there IS a God, but s/he had no hand in creating Earth and has no great design for it.  Can you believe in God and yet not believe that he created anything or designed any of it?  That would make you a Theist, but not a Christian - wouldn't it?  I'm not 100% sure you HAVE to believe in the creation theory if you are a Theist.  Mind you, that would then begs the question, WHY is there a God?  What is the definition of God anyway?  Perhaps it was wrong of me to assume that the definition was the same for everyone here.  My definition certainly includes the creation aspect.

Would just like to add - I enjoyed the interview.  I actually quite enjoyed listening to the bald guy.  He had a pleasant voice.  I did not think he came across as arrogant.  He stated very clearly and carefully that he doesn't claim to know - as far as I am concerned that's about as far from "arrogant" as you can get.  He seemed well spoken and carefully articulate... I'm not the brainiest boffin here, but I think I understood him pretty well.   He used very simple terms to state his (pretty complicated) POV, with very few or no holes.  Doesn't make him right or wrong, I'll grant you, but it did make me enjoy the interview.  Whereas the caller lost all credibility right at the end there.

I think everyone has reasons for what they believe, whether it is a system or not will be debatable. maybe with some it is a system and others it is not.

It is to me, hard to deny that we could actually "know" it all in the fact that nobody has been around forever to have that "knowledge" as to how everything got to this point in time.  We do not know what we can't have factual basis for ...Proving and disproving theories is all well and good, but science can support both sides of the coin as far as I have seen.

Amazing that  all religions, myths share a lot. Seems that there is more in common.  And then there is the things of religion which , to me, simply appear to be asides to support a healthy well being in the part of the world that you live.

Believing in something seems to support good spiritual, mental and physical health.  Arguiing about it, well, it is not usually fruitful.

Chuffy

I did not think he came across as arrogant.  He stated very clearly and carefully that he doesn't claim to know - as far as I am concerned that's about as far from "arrogant" as you can get. 

Exactly. That's why I so enjoyed it. Because he explained very well what I have fumbled with many times, without insisting that he is "right". The reasons you stated are EXACTLY why I liked it so much and brought it here to share.

I saw this video on another board (non-dog) where I have been a member for years and thought it might be an interesting discussion here. Seems I was correct. Lots of great input!  

I changed my mind about the clip I posted

Edit again - this one is much better.  Both men make some good points I think

Root of all evil