Is Atheism a Belief System? (4iC)

Neat link. I just spent the last couple of hours watching other videos in the links on youtube.

ron2

And, if you'll notice, when the caller couldn't reasonably debate or ran out of pat answers, he resort to a threat of physical violence.

I thought that was a joke! It wasn't??

 No I don't think so

I haven't watched the video, I'll tackle that later tonight, but I wanted to chime in while I have a minute. I am an atheist, and for me it is not a belief system in and of itself, but it does influence my other belief systems, political, philosophical, etc. If you asked me whether I believe in god, I'd say no, I'm an atheist, and that's all being an atheist says about me - that I don't believe in any gods or religions. If you ask me what my belief system is, I'd say I'm a secular humanist, which encompasses atheism (the fact that I don't believe in gods), but goes farther than that, or if we're talking politics, I'd say I'm a liberal. Not all atheists are secular humanists, atheists don't share a belief system, we have a wide variety of beliefs, just our beliefs don't include gods. We come in all varieties, from the in your face equivalent of a fundamentalist, to closeted atheists who actually pretend to be religious so as to avoid scrutiny from friends and family.

Thinking about it more, if someone wants to call atheism a belief because they say atheists believe there is no god, I'm not going to have a problem with that - it's just semantics to me at that point. I will argue that there is no system though. It could be called a single belief, depending what your definition of belief is. For the record, atheists argue this topic amongst themselves too.

Nice post, 2shelties. And I would like to be unaffected when people say that atheism is a belief system or whatever they want to say, but I've never been too comfortable being told what to call myself or what I am. I think it's each of our right to say what we are. But that's my issue.

Some people even go so far as to say that atheism is a religion of its own. To them, I say:

Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color. -Don Hirschberg

chelsea_b

ron2

And, if you'll notice, when the caller couldn't reasonably debate or ran out of pat answers, he resort to a threat of physical violence.

I thought that was a joke! It wasn't??

I don't get to much into this stuff but I watched the video.  I thought both sides were saying the same thing.  Both had beliefs.  The one difference I noticed was the absense and presence of passion or emotions.  There was no threat of physical violence but a display of passion for the person's beief.  Thats all. 

DPU

There was no threat of physical violence

At the end of the video, the caller says, "How 'bout I just come down there and punch your fat head in for Jesus..." and the call was disconnected.

FourIsCompany

DPU

There was no threat of physical violence

 

At the end of the video, the caller says, "How 'bout I just come down there and punch your fat head in for Jesus..." and the call was disconnected.

That was passion for his belief talking, not a real threat.

FourIsCompany

Nice post, 2shelties. And I would like to be unaffected when people say that atheism is a belief system or whatever they want to say, but I've never been too comfortable being told what to call myself or what I am. I think it's each of our right to say what we are. But that's my issue.

Some people even go so far as to say that atheism is a religion of its own. To them, I say:

Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color. -Don Hirschberg

The only thing that bugs me about people saying atheism is a religion, or that it takes faith, are the people that say it like they are scoring a point in some contest. "Ha ha! You do have faith", as if I'm going to say, "You know, you're right, maybe I do believe in god after all!" The problem with saying it takes faith to not believe in something is that it assumes that we have just chosen to reject religion or god, that we can just choose to believe again if we want to. I couldn't choose to believe in god right now any more than anyone else could force themselves to believe in tooth fairy. The realization, in my mind, that there is no god, was a long and painful process for me. It was years of studying and researching and agonizing over it from the first flicker of doubt as a child in Sunday school, to finally calling myself an atheist in my late 20's. It wasn't just, hey, religion isn't working for me, I'll try not believing in god. For a long time, I wanted to believe but I just couldn't. Now I've come to terms with it, and contrary to the angry, depressed atheist steroetype, I have a real sense of peace in my life.

DPU

That was passion for his belief talking, not a real threat.

Saying you're going to punch someone is a threat of physical violence, regardless the reason (passion?). There's no way you could know whether it was a real threat or not. Punching someone is violence. "Passion for his belief" is a cheap excuse to threaten someone.

2shelties

Now I've come to terms with it, and contrary to the angry, depressed atheist steroetype, I have a real sense of peace in my life.

I SO know what you mean here because I have the same experience.

I'm sure you've read about Bertrand Russell's Celestial Teapot.  

I don't think being an atheist always takes faith, just like being a theist doesn't always take faith. Some theists go through their lives never questioning their belief and from that perspective, it's not very hard to have faith. Same goes for an atheist. If it's a no-brainer, it's not hard to have faith. Whether it's a no-brainer or not is up to what kind of person you are.

If you've struggled with it, though, no matter what destination you arrive at, chances are it's required a bit of faith, whether it's faith that there's a higher power looking out for you or faith that there's not a higher power getting ready to punish your soul for eternity for deciding not to believe in it. I personally don't believe either occurs, which makes it pretty easy to believe whatever I like without a great leap of faith, and it also makes me pretty accepting of other people's beliefs. I might believe in a god, but I don't think those who don't are going to hell or some such. My ideal god doesn't do that kind of thing to people no matter what they do, and that's the kind of god I believe in. Other people like to believe in a vengeful god that wants them to make sacrifices for him. My ex used to tell me it was good for church to be boring because it was supposed to be a sacrifice you made for god, giving up your time to do something that wasn't very rewarding. So I figure everyone has their own god, or their own notion of god. If they're the kind of person that needs judgement in their lives, their god is the kind of god that frowns upon them when they do something bad and requires them to do something to absolve themselves. So if someone doesn't need a god at all in their lives, more power to them for choosing not to have one in their lives.

I guess I think of a belief system as some kind of chain of beliefs, or building of beliefs. I build beliefs on beliefs, and that I guess would make it a system. If one of my beliefs falls, other beliefs become unstable, and if too many fall, the whole system collapses and I start from scratch with a new belief. There have been times when I've started from scratch and times when I've tried to pull down my own belief systems and succeeded only in creating a lot of emotional turmoil when I discovered it wasn't as simple as that. Plenty of times I've pulled down a wing of my belief system and rebuilt it a different way. I've always thought of it as a high rise building. The higher you pile beliefs on, the harder it is to change the ones down near the bottom, and the more devastation when something collapses.

So if atheism is an independent belief or decision that affects nothing else and is affected by no other beliefs, then I guess it isn't a system. But hey, I'm not going to tell people they have a system when they don't think they do. They know better than me.

Chuffy, have you seen the human body exhibition where you get to see real human bodies preserved with this weird plastic? That exhibition blew me away and I was like "Holy crap, my body is a miracle!". They had some bits where the blood vessels had been preserved, but all other tissue had been dissolved away. Seeing lungs as blood vessels only was something else. And the complexity of hands was almost too much for me to comprehend. You're right, though, I find it hard to imagine how all those miracles got here by accident. I have a view that my god wants everything to be a self-running thing they can sit back and watch and marvel at, because that's what I would do if I were able, and it's why I adore nature. You can sit back and just watch all the little parts ticking and coming together and making ever larger and more complex systems. Systems within systems and all just running on their own with no need to intervene. Creation is not all that central to my religious or spiritual beliefs. I don't know how it all got here, I just get the sense that someone out there watched it grow from scratch and put a finger in here and there to make sure it all ran perfectly on its own. One time I found a little scale insect with a tiny little covering that looked like a delicate seashell made of lace. How could something so beautiful pop up somewhere its beauty was so unlikely to be appreciated? I guess I find it hard to get my mind around the idea that anything exists without a purpose, and sometimes things don't seem to have a purpose much beyond being beautiful. I'm sure the scale insect could have survived just as well with a boring old covering like all the other scale insects.

My mother thinks butterflies are beautiful soley so we don't squash caterpillars. Unfortunately, I know people who squash them anyway. 

corvus

The higher you pile beliefs on, the harder it is to change the ones down near the bottom, and the more devastation when something collapses.

I love that! Another very interesting post!

On miracles, I can see the miracle of the body and the earth. The planets, animals and plants. But to me, that doesn't mean there is a God behind it all. It's the miracle of nature. Nature certainly is full of miracles (outstanding events and accomplishments). Theists just tend to attribute these awesome things to God and Atheists don't. Nature just is...

corvus

I don't think being an atheist always takes faith, just like being a theist doesn't always take faith.

I guess that depends on how you define "faith". I usually think of it to mean a firm belief in something for which there is no proof. In that case, it doesn't take faith to be an atheist, because there is no belief in something without proof.

FourIsCompany

I guess that depends on how you define "faith". I usually think of it to mean a firm belief in something for which there is no proof. In that case, it doesn't take faith to be an atheist, because there is no belief in something without proof.

 I like this definition

To commit oneself to act based on self experience to warrant belief, but without absolute proof.^[1] Mere belief on the basis of evidence is not faith. To have faith involves an act of will. For example, many people saw Blondin walk across the gorge below Niagara Falls on a tightrope, and believed (on the basis of the evidence of their own eyes) that he was capable of carrying a man on his back safely across. But only his manager Harry Colcord had enough faith to allow himself to be carried.

That's fantastic! I see what you mean and I think certainly some faith is that strong. It's more than mere belief. It's more like believing in something so strongly that you're "willing to bet the farm" so to speak. Thank you for that!