breeding moratorium

ORIGINAL: probe1957

ORIGINAL: polarexpress

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Moderator speaking,
 
I find ALL of the comments on human breeding irrelevant to this thread, they have been removed. They are also potentially offensive and inflammatory....please cease and remain on topic which is moratoriums on DOG breeding.
 
Further comments on this will be DELETED and you may receive a PM Warning.
 
Remain civil in general as well...thank you.

When we were breeding, my breeder friends and I would hold our collective breath when the Top Ten list was due out, hoping and praying that COCKERS would not be on said list.  Not because we didn't want our breed to be universally loved, but because we didn't want another door cracked open for BYB's.
 
Even in the very best lines there will always be excellent PET quality pups and they are usually less expensive upfront than the BYBer pups who come from unproven and untested parents.  Long term of course, the advantage of a "real" breeder comes in with the lower health costs and suprise problems that crop up.

Even in the very best lines there will always be excellent PET quality pups and they are usually less expensive upfront than the BYBer pups who come from unproven and untested parents.

Unfortunately, I haven't found this to be true. As I mentioned on another thread, I have 3 chihuahuas, none of whom came from "show breeders." I do feel the breeders I bought them from were "responsible" by my own definitions, but by some here they would be considered BYBs because the dogs do not perfectly fit the breed standard and are not from show stock.

I probably would have bought a chi from a show breeder (though I think show bred chis have ugly heads, but that's a personal preference). Unfortunately, I couldn't find a show breeder wanting less than $500 for their pet puppies and that was too much money to me.

Right or wrong, most people won't spend $500 on a puppy when they can get one for $150 from a non-show breeder.

I still say what I said on the other thread...if you want to discourage people from buying from back yard breeders, lower your prices on pet quality puppies. Even if if means you lose money, it will be better for the dogs in the long run.

I'm not saying it's "right" but the average person on the street wants a certain breed of dog and with money being tight all over, people are going to try and go to the least expensive seller. I know folks will make the argument that the less expensive pups will have health problems...but a lot of common people don't believe that. You say "But that cheap puppy will have health problems" and they will regale you with stories of 5 gazillion "cheap" puppies that they, their families or their friends have owned who lived to be 18 and never had a problem.

People are stubborn and they are cheap...that's life.

It's like the Great Dog Food Debate. I'm a strong supporter in feeding a high quality food but I've been completely unsuccessful at convincing others that they should do the same...every time you try to educate them about how much better the good food is, they have a million stories ie "Aunt Sues dog ate Ol Roy his whole life and lived to be 18 and was healthy as a horse" etc.

People see dollars and cents..that's the nature of our society. If you want to get people to shop at reputable breeders, you're going to have to lower the cost.

When I've done research, the average "pet quality" puppy from a show breeder is around $500. Most common breeds can be found in the newspaper for $100-$300.  If you get your prices in line with the BYBs, you can take business away from them.

If you want to get people to shop at reputable breeders, you're going to have to lower the cost.

When I've done research, the average "pet quality" puppy from a show breeder is around $500. Most common breeds can be found in the newspaper for $100-$300. If you get your prices in line with the BYBs, you can take business away from them.

 
I good breeder doesn't need to lower prices.  They have a full market usually along with a waiting list for the pups they have now.  Why should they charge less.  Do you want they to lose even more money.  They charge what they charge to try to offset they costs.
 
 

 If you get your prices in line with the BYBs, you can take business away from them.

 
If I were selling cars...I'd totally see your point. But, I'm not...so...
I have taken business from BYB's without even selling them a puppy for any amount of money.
Information is free and like Frank said...'it doesn't kill you"

ORIGINAL: timsdat

I good breeder doesn't need to lower prices.  They have a full market usually along with a waiting list for the pups they have now.  Why should they charge less.  Do you want they to lose even more money.  They charge what they charge to try to offset they costs.

I know a good breeder doesn't NEED to lower prices. I'm saying that if they want to put BYBs out of the business, they SHOULD, even if it means losing money. We're talking ethics here...it is more important to make money or to put the BYBs out of business?

I know from talking to friends and coworkers....they know I used to show and they all say the same thing. "Those prices are ridiculous and I'd never pay that for a puppy."

Like it or hate it, that's the realistic mindset of the average american. Now if you want to convince that person NOT to buy from a BYB, you're going to have to say "Here's the same dog the BYB is selling, for the same price, but mine has a good pedigree and a health guarantee." That is the ONLY way you will get the majority of the market to come to the better breeders.

ORIGINAL: rwbeagles

 If you get your prices in line with the BYBs, you can take business away from them.

If I were selling cars...I'd totally see your point. But, I'm not...so...
I have taken business from BYB's without even selling them a puppy for any amount of money.
Information is free and like Frank said...'it doesn't kill you"

While I agree with your point, the REALISTIC view is that most people don't want the info. I know, because of my own experience trying to talk people into feeding decent dog food. You can show them info till you're blue in the face, but 90% are still seeing dollars and cents. Sad, but true.

And let's face it, people want dogs. They want certain kinds of dogs. While I agree that it's a good thing to screen buyers and make sure your pup goes to a good home, the sad truth is that many truly "good" homes are put off by the seemingly elite application process and will say, "Gee that's too much trouble, I'll just pick up a newspaper."

I'm not saying that attituide is RIGHT but it is what a lot of people think. This is what I"ve heard with my own ears. "Those show breedres are too snooty...I wouldn't buy from one." I know and you know that the show breeders are trying to be good people and make sure their puppies go to good homes...but the average middle class american working man doesn't see it that way.

I know a good breeder doesn't NEED to lower prices. I'm saying that if they want to put BYBs out of the business, they SHOULD, even if it means losing money. We're talking ethics here...it is more important to make money or to put the BYBs out of business?

 
Drive them out of business.  Wait we aren't talking about the Bigmart here.  Breeders have a full market for the pups that they have and if they ramped up the number of litters to even come close to satisifying the demand their quality would be lacking.  Many breeders I know wouldn't even sell to just anyone.  They have standards as to who they sell to.
 
 

Kodo..and I hope you can take this the right way..."you" do not know what is "realistic" in everyone's world or situation.
 
I have spoken to many people who welcomed information and went on to make better choices because of it...so in my world it "is" very realistic to say "people accept information when it's presented in a form they can understand easily...from a person who does not put themselves above them". Now why you want to try and pick at that...I have no idea?
 
Let me say...once again. I have given people information...that have come to me with preconceived ideas about "show people" and they have left with a different view...and made better choices in the dogs they eventually purchased. Now this may bother you...or this may even seem impossible to you...but that's not really something I can control. My concern is really...the people I place my puppies with...the people that I inform about the breed and how to obtain a puppy responsibly.

I don't think it's that hard to talk people into buying responsibly, at least in my experience. I just tell them that they can pay $800 or so for a BYB dog with no guarantees or they can pay the same amount from a responsible breeder and get a beautiful, healthy dog with predictable attributes.

I think the main problem is impulsiveness. You have to WAIT for a well bred dog, whereas you can open up your newspaper classifieds and get a BYB dog any day of the week. I also think some people get offended when breeders ask questions. They feel like they should be able to "just buy a dog" without answering to anyone. I don't really understand that, personally. If you have nothing to hide, you hide nothing.

ORIGINAL: rwbeagles

Kodo..and I hope you can take this the right way..."you" do not know what is "realistic" in everyone's world or situation.
 
I have spoken to many people who welcomed information and went on to make better choices because of it...so in my world it "is" very realistic to say "people accept information when it's presented in a form they can understand easily...from a person who does not put themselves above them". Now why you want to try and pick at that...I have no idea?
 
Let me say...once again. I have given people information...that have come to me with preconceived ideas about "show people" and they have left with a different view...and made better choices in the dogs they eventually purchased. Now this may bother you...or this may even seem impossible to you...but that's not really something I can control. My concern is really...the people I place my puppies with...the people that I inform about the breed and how to obtain a puppy responsibly.

RW, I'm not negating your experiences...I'm speaking of my own experience which has shown me that most people are not that accepting of information.

I have spoken till I'm blue in the face about certain pet care issues that are important to me and it's like talking to a brick wall...people just don't care where money is concerned.

Like my food analogy...I'm showed people the numbers that PROVE high quality kibble is cheaper in the long run and they STILL don't believe me. Heck my own mother doesn't believe me and she lives on the same property and has SEEN the difference in dogs that I have switched to a good kibble. She still refuses to do it to her dogs because "I'm just not going to spend that much money, and I don't care if the dogs DO look better on it...it's too much money!"

I've simply met a lot of people with that attitude...I'm glad you've had better experiences.

ORIGINAL: rolenta

I don't think it's that hard to talk people into buying responsibly, at least in my experience. I just tell them that they can pay $800 or so for a BYB dog with no guarantees or they can pay the same amount from a responsible breeder and get a beautiful, healthy dog with predictable attributes.

I think the main problem is impulsiveness. You have to WAIT for a well bred dog, whereas you can open up your newspaper classifieds and get a BYB dog any day of the week. I also think some people get offended when breeders ask questions. They feel like they should be able to "just buy a dog" without answering to anyone. I don't really understand that, personally. If you have nothing to hide, you hide nothing.

I agree with what you're saying Rolenta, but most people *that I know* aren't buying an $800 puppy..they're getting a lab, a chi, a jack russell (common breeds) for around $150 which seems like a lot less to them than the $800 the better breeders want. It's hard to convince people to spend that much money on a dog when they see they can get one for cheaper.

And I agree that the questions are offsetting to some people..they don't offset me because I have nothing to hide, but some people get offended easily. Often they don't have anything to hide in the first place..they're just offended by the questions in general and hence choose to avoid the breeders because they *percieve* the questions to be "snotty".

I'm just saying that if we are truly concerned about putting BYBs out of a business, the way to do it is to get the people who buy from them to go another route.

If we can accomplish that through information, then that's WONDERFUL. But my experience has been that people often don't want to listen (and for some reason, men often seem worse about it than women?)

I have spoken till I'm blue in the face about certain pet care issues that are important to me and it's like talking to a brick wall...people just don't care where money is concerned

 
See I never get that worked up about it....I've found it's usually not good for my inner peace lol.
 
 

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