breeding moratorium

ORIGINAL: Kodo



Right or wrong, most people won't spend $500 on a puppy when they can get one for $150 from a non-show breeder.

 
Then why do people flock to Petland and such ilk and drop $1000's on poorly bred dogs? Is it because of the $30 a month financing or is it because they're uneducated about the differences in breeders. For example, here in Chicago you can buy a pet quality Boston Terrier from a BYB from $300 to $800, from a pet store for $1500 to $2000 and from a responsible breeder from $800 to $1200. So a person can get a well bred Boston Terrier for the same price or a bit more than a BYB and almost always cheaper then getting one from a pet store yet the puppymill/pet store industry is flourishing.
 
As far as responsible breeders lowering prices? Yeah right. They put way more into their breeding program and they're expected to give away puppies at dirt price? I wouldn't expect them to do that and then again, they aren't in competition with BYB's. They aren't breeding to churn out puppies for the masses, they breed for the health and preservation of the breed. To expect them to lower prices is just as bad as someone walking into a Mercedes dealership and expecting to pay Ford Focus price.

ORIGINAL: meilani

ORIGINAL: Kodo



Right or wrong, most people won't spend $500 on a puppy when they can get one for $150 from a non-show breeder.

 

To expect them to lower prices is just as bad as someone walking into a Mercedes dealership and expecting to pay Ford Focus price.

 
I think the average person knows that a Mercedes is considered a luxury car and a Ford is not.  I don't know if the average person knows the difference between a byb dog vs a responsibly bred dog.  I think it comes down to the market a breeder is trying to supply to.  It does not seem that the goal of responsible breeders is to supply dogs to the average person.  That seems to be the goal of back yard breeders and puppy mills.

ORIGINAL: dlg81

ORIGINAL: meilani

ORIGINAL: Kodo



Right or wrong, most people won't spend $500 on a puppy when they can get one for $150 from a non-show breeder.

 

To expect them to lower prices is just as bad as someone walking into a Mercedes dealership and expecting to pay Ford Focus price.

I think the average person knows that a Mercedes is considered a luxury car and a Ford is not.  I don't know if the average person knows the difference between a byb dog vs a responsibly bred dog.  I think it comes down to the market a breeder is trying to supply to.  It does not seem that the goal of responsible breeders is to supply dogs to the average person.  That seems to be the goal of back yard breeders and puppy mills.

 
You hit the nail on the head. The average person, in my experience does not know the difference between a BYB dog and a responsibly bred dog...(that's the point I've been trying to get across...) The average person only sees dollars and cents.And lets face it, "average" people are the majority of dog owners...People sit here and gripe about average folks buying from BYBs and yet also say "Well I'm not here to provide to the masses." Now in a perfect world, the masses would get all their dogs from shelters and rescues but that isn't going to happen...so effectively, the good breeders are shoving the buyers into the arms of BYBs.
 
Several people  here have made it  clear that the responsible breeders aren't here to supply dogs "to the masses." Well, in that case, people are going to go get their dogs somewhere, and since most folks want a pure bred dog, that "somewhere" will usually be BYB.Responsible breeders complain about the evils of backyard breeding but don't seem too interesting in stepping up to fill the demand for pure  bred puppies to the average folks...it's silly to think that people are just going to stop wanting pure bred dogs....they're gonna get them somewhere.
 
Here's what I hear: "Don't buy from a backyard breeder, but don't buy from me either cause you don't meet requirements and I don't have any puppies available anyway." Well gee, where are people supposed to get their  purebred puppies if the good breeders won't sell them? Obviously they will flock to BYBs because the simple fact is people want dogs.
 
If good breeders aren't willing to do what's necessary to put the BYBs out of business, then why are they complaining about the BYBs?  Either do something to fix the problem or stop griping about it. Actively get out there and try to provide quality puppies to the masses because if you don't, they're just going to keep going to the BYBs.
 
Supply and demand folks...demand for purebred puppies isn't going down. Why not actively try to take business from those BYBs through good business sense.
 
I'm not going to address the whole pet shop puppy thing because I've honestly never personally known anyone who bought a puppy that way.

So are you suggesting that breeders be less responsible by giving their dog to ANYONE who wants one?  That's not going to solve anything.  GOOD breeders are very thorough in screening applicants because they CARE about what happens to their dogs.  It isn't their job to provide dogs for everyone.  It's their job to find great homes for the dogs they produce. 

If you can't get a responsible breeder to sell you a dog, then you probably shouldn't own a dog. With a few exceptions of course. Some breeders of shiba inus wouldn't sell to me because I live in an apartment.

That being said, no one's forcing the dog buyers to buy from BYBs. Demand is controlled by the consumer and supply responds accordingly. If people only ever wanted good, well-bred dogs, rest assured, there would be way more good breeders. All of those BYBs would get the hint and either start breeding responsibly, or go out of business. It really is a matter of educating the masses (and making them care).

ORIGINAL: Laurelin_429

So are you suggesting that breeders be less responsible by giving their dog to ANYONE who wants one?  That's not going to solve anything.  GOOD breeders are very thorough in screening applicants because they CARE about what happens to their dogs.  It isn't their job to provide dogs for everyone.  It's their job to find great homes for the dogs they produce. 

 
I'm saying if they DON'T sell their dogs to average people, those average people are going to continue shopping at BYBs.
 
Now are we wanting to put BYBs out of business or not? Because I ever time I suggest something that would effectively put back yard breeders out of business, it gets cut down. You (the collective "you" ) SAY you want to get rid of back yard breeding....and then You say you don't want to sell your puppies to just anyone and yet you complain when those people you're turning down go support back yard breeders. Where do you suggest average people get their puppies?
 
I just think it's sad that people get criticized for buying from a back yard breeder by the same people who refuse to sell average people puppies. "Average" homes have a right to pets too...unfortunately, they don't meet the qualifications for a "responsible" breeder's puppy, so they feel as though they have no choice but to go to a less reputable breeder.
 
Fish or cut bait....either do something about the problem (ie actively try to put the byb's out of business) or stop criticizing people for buying from them.
 
 
 

ORIGINAL: rolenta

If you can't get a responsible breeder to sell you a dog, then you probably shouldn't own a dog.

 
I disagree...some of  these "responsible" breeders have so many rules and qualifications that most people couldn't meet them! " I think anyone who loves dogs and can take care of one should be allowed to have one...not just those who pass a list of 55 criteria and a credit check.

To me if the responsible breeders start being less selective about their breeding to produce more dogs so that every person can have one and stop being so strict with screening, then they are now backyard breeders and you are back to where you started.

Just curious, Kodo, what are the qualifications that you think are unreasonable? Each breeder has their own qualifications. As I said in my other post, some breeders wouldn't sell a puppy to me because of where I lived, but I did find a good breeder close by that did.

ORIGINAL: rolenta

If you can't get a responsible breeder to sell you a dog, then you probably shouldn't own a dog. With a few exceptions of course. Some breeders of shiba inus wouldn't sell to me because I live in an apartment.

That being said, no one's forcing the dog buyers to buy from BYBs. Demand is controlled by the consumer and supply responds accordingly. If people only ever wanted good, well-bred dogs, rest assured, there would be way more good breeders. All of those BYBs would get the hint and either start breeding responsibly, or go out of business. It really is a matter of educating the masses (and making them care).

 
If this happened I doubt the number of well bred dogs being produced would increase to supply for the demand.  I've read it on this message board and others that "responsible" breeders are not breeding to supply the masses with puppies or to fill demand.  They are doing it to improve the breed (any other proper cause can be inserted here).  Why would they change the number of dogs they produce to supply the masses?  The BYBs would probably go out of business and there would be less dogs produced overall.  People would either end up on waiting lists or not get dogs (which might be a good thing in the end anyway).
 
 

As requested, I'm starting a new thread to discuss this topic.  Picking a breed as an example, could be any breed. Are reputable breeders being unethical by breeding their labs (conformation, field, obedience titles plus actually do real hunting with them, fully health tested) when there are thousands of labs sitting in shelters now?

 
I just want to comment on the original question.  As the owner of a poorly bred purebred dog I can say my opinion on this is a big "NO". 
 
I think it's wonderful of people to want to rescue dogs from shelters.  And, I know when I go there I feel so sorry for them all I wish I could just take them all and foster them or keep them. 
 
But, my reality is that I've had already four long years of trying to deal with the many "issues" this dog came with.  I don't regret what I've done and I'd do it all again.  And, I hope she's with me for a long, long time.  However, that does not negate the fact that my life is somewhat limited due to her problems.  Yes, some of them I can and do work on, some I don't think will ever go away.  And, then there's the medical issues, they come and go too.   And, that's not even touching  on the stresses of living everyday with a dog that could potentially hurt someone or another animal if put in the wrong situation.  It's really tough, I can't be with her 24/7.  So, it's stressful when she's not in my care, I worry.
 
I don't think that it's taking anything away from another dog to say that after this I don't want this experience on a permanent basis again.  For my next dog, I want to know the parents, know the family history, know the dog was bred by someone who knew what they were doing.  I want to know my dogs temperment is going to be what it's supposed to be.  I think it would be taking from another dog to have the mindset of "I settled for you" because that was more politically correct.
 
And, this original question also mentioned "it could be any breed".  Honestly, I don't think you can look at it that way.  For example, my breed is the chow.  I would like another chow someday.  If I go to a shelter, I'm most likely going to be back to more of the same, maybe worse.  Now, if your chosen breed is much easier going and most likely didn't land at the shelter for aggression issues then maybe you'd be more likely to get your dog at one.  So, I think breed is a big deal. 

ORIGINAL: rolenta

Just curious, Kodo, what are the qualifications that you think are unreasonable? Each breeder has their own qualifications. As I said in my other post, some breeders wouldn't sell a puppy to me because of where I lived, but I did find a good breeder close by that did.

 
Here are some I have heard myself, as well as ones I've been told by other people:
 
You are too young. (gee, guess that means I MUST be irresponsible!)
You are too old. (Guess old people can't be good owners?)
You have kids. (That's funny, I was a kid once, and we had dogs and it was never a problem?)
You don't have kids. (Just means I have more money for the dogs!)
You don't have a good enough job. (heard by a person who made average money and could easily afford to take care of a dog)
You work too much. (gee, I work 8hr days like most people, kind of a good idea to have a job these days.)
You have too many other dogs. (and who are you to say there isn't room for one more at the inn?)
You don't have another dog to keep it company. (I know lots of "only dogs" that are very happy!)
You've never owned this breed before.(So I guess trying to learn something new is bad?)
 
 
See what I'm saying? It's like people are looking for some specific thing in their mind instead of just looking for good honest responsible people.
 
Here's one for you...I was turned down because *my entire* property isn't dog fenced. I do have a large outside run but most of the time my dogs are in the house or outside on leashes...I only put them in the yard when I'm not home. I certainly can't afford right now to dog proof 5 acres!
 
 
 

IMO less stringent screening=more mistaken placements=more purebred dogs ending up in shelters...not less.
 
Kodo, your post sounds like others I have seen before...but as with almost any situation where a service is offered, or a purchase is made...people who have had bad experiences are often those you hear about, because those that have had positive experiences...aren't complaining.
 
It's a phenom we see often here...."why does it seem everyone has xxx problem with their dog?"...well 'everyone' doesn't. This is a dog forum with a heavy bend towards advice, and as such it attracts people who are having problems...more often than those who are not.
 
Another example...'why is xxx breed always in the news biting...they must be aggressive'...no..."the breed" is not aggressive...it's simply that the media focuses on the bad to sell papers or get ratings....out there right now are thousands of people with xxx breed who are 100% happy and 100% in love with their dogs.
 

It's a phenom we see often here...."why does it seem everyone has xxx problem with their dog?"...well 'everyone' doesn't. This is a dog forum with a heavy bend towards advice, and as such it attracts people who are having problems...more often than those who are not.

Another example...'why is xxx breed always in the news biting...they must be aggressive'...no..."the breed" is not aggressive...it's simply that the media focuses on the bad to sell papers or get ratings....out there right now are thousands of people with xxx breed who are 100% happy and 100% in love with their dogs.

I completely agree with your first statement. 

However, I think unfortunately that some breeds do tend to have more aggression issues.  And, once they fall into the wrong hands either thru a back yard breeder or a rescue that didn't screen as thoroughly your going to see that tendency come out.  I don't like it when people say things like, chows are not aggressive.  They shouldn't be aggressive.  But, reality is that a great many are.  And, I think by sugar coating that you also end up with more problems by way of people buying them believing that or not training them properly because they feel they don't need too.

Now, all that said I'm 100% happy with my dog, I love her.  But, I also don't kid myself about what they were originally bred for and what she's possibly capable of.

Lori...it may be semantics...lol but I prefer to say a breed has more propensity for aggro behaviors...than to say an entire breed "is aggressive"...that sounds too much like a statement of fact....and not all members of any breed are going to fit that, IMO.
 
Didn't wanna go too far OT but just wanted to offer that []