Fuming over elitist, nasty reaction to AKC mixed-breed survey--what do you think?

i wonder if it would make MB people happy to have their own registry/competitions and if it would anger PB people if they couldn't get in, or if they would even want to get in. is their already such a thing?

 
I wouldn't doubt a few would scream "THAT'S NOT FAIR!" when the tables were turned.  Can't make everybody happy.
 
As for "AKC dogs" I know of quite a few dogs that LOOK like purebreds, and are ILP'd as purebreds, even though they're mixed breeds.  Nobody says a blasted thing about them, as long as they LOOK purebred, which makes me think it just comes down to how the dog looks, rather than how it trains and competes.
 
Purebred ILPd rescues rarely have pedigrees as well....does that make them less because you can't research their pedigree or put them in the conf ring?

I honestly don't think that anyone at the AKC is having these kind of thoughts.
They are concerned with their revenues, period. With an increase in "designer breeds" at the expense of PBs they are losing a huge "market segment" of potential members.
 
As an owner of a mystery mutt and a PB rescue I find it a little strange that the AKC would insist on PBs being intact and MBs being speutered given that anytime there is an attempt at legislation which would "strongly encourage" spaying and neutering, the AKC lobbyists are always right there arguing for everyone's right to decide for themselves whether to spay or neuter. I mean, which is it?
 
And I don't see what would be so wrong with allowing speutered PBs to compete in thigns like agility or obedience or even conformation. The AKC could have their revenues, the owners could have their fun, and the AKC would not be encouraging dilettant breeders.
 
Just my 2 c.
 
 

And I don't see what would be so wrong with allowing speutered PBs to compete in thigns like agility or obedience or even conformation.

They already do allow it.  Dogs that are purebred but have no pedigree must be spayed/neutered in order to receive an ILP number, and they may compete in any performance venue.  Champions who are spayed/neutered due to old age/are no longer being bred are allowed to compete in performance.

You don't have to have an intact animal to show in agility, rally, obedience, etc
 
Conformation is the evaluation of breeding stock so there is no reason for an altered animal to be shown in conformation unless it is a veteran and is no longer being bred (I've shown my old man in veterans in the past).

quote:

i wonder if it would make MB people happy to have their own registry/competitions and if it would anger PB people if they couldn't get in, or if they would even want to get in. is their already such a thing?

 
 
American Mixed Breed Owner Registry
[linkhttp://www.amborusa.com/]http://www.amborusa.com/[/link]
 
As far as if allowing mixes to play in AKC, my only concern is if you are then having too few slots for more dogs.  With the addition of the FAST class in agility, there are already fewer dogs allowed, adding mixes would further complicate this problem in areas where trials fill.  This would also apply to Tracking trials.  I doubt it would apply to Obedience or Rally.  Otherwise, I have no problem with the MB playing.  BUT, I'm opposed to a separate class and I'd be opposed to have one entry date for PB and a later one for MB.  I think either the AKC allows them, or it doesn't, but don't treat them as less than PB.   And keep in mind that the AKC also excludes nonAKC purebreds from doing events currently, so it's really NOT a MB versus PB arguement.  The AKC only allows AKC breeds to play.  (And some, but not all of the FSS breeds.)
 
 
 
 
I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members.
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(insert cigar smoking smiley here)

More wisdom
 
I have a mind to join a club and beat you over the head with it.
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ORIGINAL: Xeph

And I don't see what would be so wrong with allowing speutered PBs to compete in thigns like agility or obedience or even conformation.

They already do allow it.  Dogs that are purebred but have no pedigree must be spayed/neutered in order to receive an ILP number, and they may compete in any performance venue.  Champions who are spayed/neutered due to old age/are no longer being bred are allowed to compete in performance.

You don't have to have an intact animal to show in agility, rally, obedience, etc

Conformation is the evaluation of breeding stock so there is no reason for an altered animal to be shown in conformation unless it is a veteran and is no longer being bred (I've shown my old man in veterans in the past).

[sm=dance.gif]There is a great point here that I want to repeat: conformation requires intact dogs because it is evaluating BREEDING stock. Other events do not require intact dogs.

Good for you for showing your veteran.  One weekend I saw a kid showing his dog in the veteran class and in junior showmanship and that old dog just looked so pleased with himself. Some dogs just like the ring.[]

You also made another comment earlier I want to follow up on---about it not mattering if MB dogs are at an event:

Some folks may not understand that in obedience, agility, tracking, and rally----you really are NOT competing against other dogs to earn the majority of titles. (OTCH and MACH are special---but they are rare and the top of the pyramid here and have to do with the number of dogs you beat.)

For example, it does not matter if you are at an obedience event with 5 dogs competing or 25 dogs. You do not earn an obedience title by beating other dogs----you do it by completing a proscribed series of exercises properly.

After you have 3 qualifying scores (or legs) you have your title.

So you are competing against yourself, or the course in agility or tracking (which is a pass/fail test) so the presence of other dogs doesn't matter as far as earning the majority of titles is concerned.

When in comes to High in Trial (high score award) and OTCH and MACH it would matter, but the average person is not training a HIT dog-----adding MB dogs to the classes might even be a help to some experienced exhibitors who could accumulate OTCH/MACH points faster if MB dogs counted.[] 
 
EDIT:
[] 
ACK: someone has just pointed out the huge FLAW in my final comment about adding MB dogs helping toward a MACH or OTCH---it could actually cost PBs the chance to earn a MACH or OTCH. I was wrongly thinking only about people NEW to dog sports who would increase numbers but lack experience to place highly.
 
My bad.
 
 

adding MB dogs to the classes might even be a help to some experienced exhibitors who could accumulate OTCH/MACH points faster if MB dogs counted.

 
Correction:
In order to achieve a MACH, you have to have 20 double Q's (qualifying in both the standard run and the jumpers run on the same day) and 750 points from the ExB class.  Points are awarded by each full second under standard course time.  First place doubles their points; second place gets a 1.5 mulitplier.  SO, actually, the more dogs that are in your class, the harder it is to get first or second place and the harder it is to accumulate those MACH points quickly.  More dogs in the class is NOT a plus.
 
I have no idea how OTCH points work.

ORIGINAL: Laurelin_429

Try traveling to conformation shows- especillay when all you need are your majors.  It's tough to find shows and you most often HAVE to go out of state to get them.  So driving is no big deal to me at all.

Try doing it when the typical breed entry is 1 or 2 dogs.  It usually takes a great deal of coordination to get 3 or more dogs together to even get points in my breed.  YIKES!  And I usually have to drive 5 or more hours to get to those shows.  I'm in the Pharaoh Hound "no man's land" here.

And as far as elitism goes... do you guys understand exactly how much crap show owners/breeders/handlers have to go through on these forums? 

That is a good point Laurelin.  I have seen abuse going both ways on forums and I think it's horrible.  But I don't think it's as widespread on this particular forum as it is in others.  I also belong to a PH breed forum as well and there are quite a few elitists out there too, that trash the mixed breeds; conversely when I was in the process of getting my dog I was given alot of grief for not rescuing a dog from the shelter. 

Kind of funny how the dogs can get along but the owners cannot.

As for "AKC dogs" I know of quite a few dogs that LOOK like purebreds, and are ILP'd as purebreds, even though they're mixed breeds.

funny you mention this, my dad had a dog once that was 3/4 cocker and 1/4 beagle. a vet once told him it was the finest example of a beagle he'd ever seen. it looked like a beagle, apparently perfectly like one, but in fact was not even close. the vet refused to believe it.

[] My apologies I really didn't think the MACH & OTCH thing all the way through.
 
Thank you for pointing out my mistake.
 
You are absolutely correct---I guess I was seeing a short-term benefit for elite agility/obedience folks who would beat MBs with less experienced handlers. I was thinking of attracting people new to dog sports and not thinking about the MBs currently competing in dog sports.
 
Of course mixes already compete ( and very well) in USDAA events so someone coming to AKC agility from USDAA would need to make some minor adjustments but a good dog/handler team would definitely be able to place and prevent a PB from earning MACH points.
 
I don't think there is a BIG group that does MB obedience the way USDAA does agility----but certainly an experienced trainer with a MB is certainly capable of  wreaking OTCH point havoc because that is also based on the number of dogs you beat.
 
I have heard folks joking call their dogs "OTCH fodder" because although they may qualify, they certainly are not a threat to place highly and they DO help increase the numbers and the points.
 
It can be the same in conformation where beating a certain number of dogs increases the number of points toward a championship. So encouraging others to enter their dogs to "up the points" to "create a major" can happen. I actually got an email from someone encouraging everyone with my breed to sign up for a particular show so the points would be higher because she couldn't travel far and she needed one final "major" for her dog.
 
So, my apologies for not thinking this through as well as I should have. Maybe it is because I know I will probably never have to worry about keeping track of MACH or OTCH points[]
 
 

ORIGINAL: agilebasenji

adding MB dogs to the classes might even be a help to some experienced exhibitors who could accumulate OTCH/MACH points faster if MB dogs counted.

Correction:
In order to achieve a MACH, you have to have 20 double Q's (qualifying in both the standard run and the jumpers run on the same day) and 750 points from the ExB class.  Points are awarded by each full second under standard course time.  First place doubles their points; second place gets a 1.5 mulitplier.  SO, actually, the more dogs that are in your class, the harder it is to get first or second place and the harder it is to accumulate those MACH points quickly.  More dogs in the class is NOT a plus.

I have no idea how OTCH points work.

I have heard folks joking call their dogs "OTCH fodder" because although they may qualify, they certainly are not a threat to place highly and they DO help increase the numbers and the points.

 
That would be Strauss xD  He qualifies in the mid 180s, and since we're in Open now (even though it's Open A), he doesn't stand a shot xD

Maybe it is because I know I will probably never have to worry about keeping track of MACH or OTCH points

 
Oh, you never know . . .
 
And just incase anyone was wondering, personally I think the AKC should do away with the multipliers for the MACH program.  But the AKC didn't take my advice when they asked for it.  Oh well.

ORIGINAL: polarexpress
I don't think there is a BIG group that does MB obedience the way USDAA does agility----but certainly an experienced trainer with a MB is certainly capable of  wreaking OTCH point havoc because that is also based on the number of dogs you beat.

 
No, but there is possibly potential for one.
[linkhttp://mbdca.tripod.com/]http://mbdca.tripod.com/[/link]
 
This group is not big at all now, but they have potential to become big. I mean, currently, where do you go if you have a mystery mutt and want to compete / earn titles in events other than conformation. The only thing the AKC will allow me to do with my pound dog is CGC (which I have). I have a PB Golden Retriever with no papers (but also AKC CGC) since she was rescued from a puppymill. So where do people like me go? Currently there is no option so getting in "on the ground floor" of an outfit like MBDCA can look inviting. And this is potential revenue diverted from AKC in the future.
 
And thank you Xeph for the clarification.

ORIGINAL: zircon

ORIGINAL: polarexpress
I don't think there is a BIG group that does MB obedience the way USDAA does agility----but certainly an experienced trainer with a MB is certainly capable of  wreaking OTCH point havoc because that is also based on the number of dogs you beat.

No, but there is possibly potential for one.
[linkhttp://mbdca.tripod.com/]http://mbdca.tripod.com/[/link]

This group is not big at all now, but they have potential to become big. I mean, currently, where do you go if you have a mystery mutt and want to compete / earn titles in events other than conformation. The only thing the AKC will allow me to do with my pound dog is CGC (which I have). I have a PB Golden Retriever with no papers (but also AKC CGC) since she was rescued from a puppymill. So where do people like me go? Currently there is no option so getting in "on the ground floor" of an outfit like MBDCA can look inviting. And this is potential revenue diverted from AKC in the future.

And thank you Xeph for the clarification.

If you have a rescued golden with no papers you can get the dog an ILP number....

this is a LOT of information, and some of it way over my head because i don't have PBs (well, varitek may be but there is no way to varify this), but i wanted to make this point: 
 
in reference to the AKC trying to make money, as far as i know, they are a FOR PROFIT organization.  someone please correct me if i'm wrong about that.  if i'm not, the whole idea behind capitalism is to try and increase your bottom line.  having said that, a lot of companies do unethical things in the name of  The Bottom Line.  the AKC is a place for purebreds, so what's with the "affirmative action" for mutts?  i cannot understand why a mixed breed owner would want to compete in that particular forum.  i deeply respect the commitment involved in competition, but i wonder why people feel they need to be officially recognized all the time? 
 
let me put it this way:  my dogs are the best.  they don't need trophies or papers to prove that.  everyone else's dogs here are the best, too.  get it?  because after all, purebred or mixed, they're all dogs, aren't they?  and isn't that why we're here?  because we love them, no matter what?