What does studding entail?

    • Gold Top Dog

    What does studding entail?

    So my breeders had a visit with Leroi on the wknd - first time they've seen him in person since I took him home - I had only give them picture updates until now.  He is 4.5 months old.  He was the only male in his litter and the breeders were going nuts for him.  I guess at this age he has developed perfectly and they are talking about showing him overseas and studding him, assuming he doesn't suddenly get hideously deformed between now and maturity.  They are urging us not to neuter him for these reason, which is fine with us because my other half has a hard enough time castrating his male buddy! 
    Anyhow, what does this mean to us, his owners?  We really don't care if he's a perfectly bred whippet, we just wanted one as a family pet.  They said not to change anything re: raising him and that they want him to come and stay with them again in a few months.  If my dog entered dog shows,  do I need to learn how to use that tiny leash?  Does someone else show him?  If so, do I pay someone to do that?  If my breeder wants to stud my dog, do I have to pay them to do that, too? 
    I know nothing and was just wondering if someone had any casual info on this.
     
    P.S. I looked for a specific forum for these questions and didn't see one - if I'm in the wrong place, let me know!
    • Gold Top Dog
    There are TONS of ways it could be done really.
     
    First question...do you own your dog..outright....meaning are you guys the ONLY ones listed as owners on the papers...and also in any contract you signed? If so then YOU and no one else has final say on what is potentially done with your dog. Remember that and stand by it....your dog...your decision.
     
    You are in Canada so some of this may not apply, but here's a quick bit on showing....
     
    Your dogs sounds like he will live with the breeder where they will likely be training him...stacking (standing very still in a particular pose on a table...and also on the ground), gaiting (how to move at a proper pace without pulling or lowering the head), and standing for exam (not moving while a stranger...the judge...handles their mouths, tails, and testicles...basically don't move when handled). They may take him to practice shows in order to test him out and see if he enjoys it and shows himself well.
     
    He will be gone...meaning not in your home...during this time. Depending on how far away they live...that could be difficult for you.
     
    He may live with you between shows...or be gone until he finishes...that could be a month up to 6 months or longer, depending on how good he is...and how hard it is to finish a Whippet in your area. Depending on your breeders set up...he may learn or unlearn various things that could make him harder to live with when he returns (some breeders allow more barking...for ex than a person living in an apt would, others kennel the dogs so housetraining can slip).
     
    Breeding your dog should not even be considered until he is a mature dog...that being 18mo-2 years of age. Puppies can look great...but no one should get too excited until they are mature. Whippets have health clearances that need to be done...which you'd have to familiarize yourself with...and work out with the breeder who is going to pay for what. PUT IT IN WRITING...DO NOT ALLOW YOUR DOG TO LEAVE YOUR PREMISES WITHOUT A SIGNED CONTRACT!!! I cannot overstate that enough....it is CRUCIAL.
     
    Actual stud service is typically handled by the breeder...what you will have to deal with is in your home...an entire male that has bred bitches. They can be obnoxious more than usual with other male dogs, and females in that they try to breed them even when not in season...mark in the house...become more sexual in general...escape a lot more as they now know what that special smell means.
     
    You have a lot to consider...and personally I would NEVER even mention the word breeding to someone with a 4.5 month old puppy. Showing...perhaps yes...but only if the owners WANT TO DO IT and understand that if this dog were truly outstanding they might see their pet only rarely...and the dog might have a stronger bond with the handler or breeder than the people who bought it as a pet.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Most of those details would be between you and your breeder.  If your breeder is going to show him, I would suspect that you will have to pay for the show and handleing fees, and they would pay you for the stud fees.  But unless they stud him out every time they show him you will end up paying out.  You would also have to pay for the health certs as well.  Since he is your family dog are you sure you want him out on a show circut?  He can be gone for months at a time, expecialy if showing overseas.  As for the neutering part life with an uneutered male can be hard, they like to mark everywhere, in and out of the house, couches, shoes, banisters, doors anthing they can lift their leg on.  Un-neutered males can also me more dog aggresive and territorial.  And the fact that they can smell a female in heat anywhere with in something like 1 and a half miles makes them a lot more intent on escapeing the yard.  Just some stuff to think about.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Adding...entry fees range here in the USA $20-30 per show per DAY....handler fees $45-100 per show, per day. then there is the handlers travel expenses which are usually divided by the number of dogs they carry.
     
    Again...in writing get what YOU would be responsible for....are they using a handler? who will pay that handler? put a "cap" on your expenditures if you have a limited budget. People spend thousands finishing a dog esp if you use a handler...so there's some perspective for you.
     
    Again I think you need to be firm in your stance on the breeding issue...because your dog is a puppy. I would not even discuss that until you see what he does in the ring...nor would I allow him to be used WITHOUT being shown and finished or major pointed. Otherwise...who really know if he is good enough to breed? Stud fees vary by breed....Beagles are $500-1000 per breeding for a top dog and Akitas are $1000-2000 for said same. You would need to negotiate what you would take as far as fees...the breeder should not be breeding to make money off the dog....and only do breedings where the bitch is worthy...and the pedigrees complement.
     
    What you need to avoid is becoming a paying 'hotel' for your own dog...meaning you pay all the bills and rarely see your dog or get to spend time with him. The breeder obviously made a mistake placing him as a 'pet' and that happens...but they need to step up and pay the piper as well if they want to show and use the dog. Thats IMO of course.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: ruffian

    As for the neutering part life with an uneutered male can be hard, they like to mark everywhere, in and out of the house, couches, shoes, banisters, doors anthing they can lift their leg on.  Un-neutered males can also me more dog aggresive and territorial.  And the fact that they can smell a female in heat anywhere with in something like 1 and a half miles makes them a lot more intent on escapeing the yard.  Just some stuff to think about.


    Although it's more likely that these things will develop, it's not a given.  My sister has a entire male that does not wander or mark.  I have had an entire male that did not wander or mark.  My brother used to have an entire golden and he was the same.  He was used at stud a couple of times and there was no noticeable change in his behaviour.  Perhaps that's rare, but I expect that some dogs develop all or some of those issues to a greater or lesser degree, more so if they are used for stud, and others don't develop them at all even if they are used at stud.  As long as you are prepared for a possible regression with recall, house training etc. and know that your yard needs to be extra secure and you need to be a bit more careful on walks when meeting other dogs, I'd say this should not sway your decision..... If I were in your position I'd be giving rwbeagles posts the most consideration.
    • Gold Top Dog
    If my dog were to ever start showing, we would be the ones to show him.  He's not going to be leaving our home to live with someone else because he is first and foremost our family pet and we don't really give a crap if he's show material or not.  We'd look at showing as a fun pastime like flyball or coursing. 
    rwbeagle, thanks for the info, it's very handy - you also sound a little anti-show and stud, but I understand there are pros and cons to all sides of the equation. 
    Yes, we are the only owners, and yes our contract says this.  I don't think they made a mistake letting us buy him, but they DO always keep the most well bred male from each litter.  As Leroi was the ONLY male in the litter, they decided to keep the most well bred female.  Luck has it, I guess Leroi is the best bred male they've seen in several litters, luck of the draw no doubt.  They aren't trying to take him away from us or anything, they just wanted us to know we have something special and that if we were INTERESTED in showing or studding, it certainly seems to be a viable option, ASSUMING he continues to develop the way he has. 
     
    Also, the theory that all un-neutered males experience health/behavioural/sexual/obedience issues is, from what I have heard, not gospel.  Whippets are actually healthier with their "boys" and are extremely non-agressive.  We have an english bloodline so they don't bark very often.  The breeder discussed leaving him whole and how people are normally wary of this, but need not be.  Obviously if he starting marking all over the house and humping anything that breathed, we would chop the cherries off, but we'd like to wait and see what happens.  It can't hurt to give him a chance, I don't think.
    Like I said, showing/studding won't happen if he suddenly starts developing a 5th leg or a conehead.  The breeder with 25 yrs experience said he had a keen eye for predicting the future build of a young whippet and couldn't believe how statuesque and muscular he was already.  NATURALLY Leroi may not be a perfect specimen when he's fully grown (and we don't care if this happens), but the breeder was adamant, so we'll just see what comes of it.  He's 4.5 months old.  Everything could change tomorrow.  As you can imagine, I soaked this all up with glee, because Leroi's like my baby and everyone loves to hear how perfect and fabulous their baby is!!!!!!! [:D]
    • Gold Top Dog
    rwbeagle, thanks for the info, it's very handy - you also sound a little anti-show and stud, but I understand there are pros and cons to all sides of the equation.


    Gina's Beagles are show dogs, and she does breed, so..... I think she was just telling you what it would be like, as a pet owner, to have a dog that you don't show yourself.
    • Gold Top Dog
    If showing is somethng you want to do for fun then I would suggest you start your reasearch right now. Some show people take showing a little more seriouse than just all fun, you will be compeating ageanst thoes as well. My advice is to go to as many shows as you can and see what it's all about. I'm sure if Leroi's breeder sees potential in him then the breeder would be more than greatful to be your mentor. I think anyone starting off should have a mentor. If you do decide to stud him then I would suggest doing the show thing first to "prove" that he is everthing right to be used as a stud. Above all I just love the idea that show dogs can also be kept as family pets and I think it's great that you see him as part of your family.[:D]
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: jennie_c_d

    rwbeagle, thanks for the info, it's very handy - you also sound a little anti-show and stud, but I understand there are pros and cons to all sides of the equation.


    Gina's Beagles are show dogs, and she does breed, so..... I think she was just telling you what it would be like, as a pet owner, to have a dog that you don't show yourself.



    I agree.  I think that Gina is only trying to give you a perspective.  Mostly, I am opposed to pets being unneutered unless they are going to show in the breed ring.  But, I also caution my students about the downside.  And, unfortunately, there is one.  Intact males may not be welcome at some facilities.  The urine marking is an issue for some people, and you need to understand that, while many intact dogs don't mark in the  house, some do - and sometimes castration does not alter the behavior once it has started.  We don't want to discourage you from showing, or even breeding, a really nice representative of your breed, but you need to go into it with full information, not just to make your breeder happy.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I don't think they made a mistake letting
     
    I am not anti breeder or show as I do both myself. I'd suggest perhaps you not be quite so defensive, and go back and read my words as they are intended...a helpful layout of what to do and what is likely to happen based on my own experience as a pet owner, show dog owner, and breeder, to someone who admits they have little experience in the prior arenas.
     
    I have seen MANY pet owners fleeced by people into spending a lot of money and doing a lot of really 'interesting' things with their dog...at the behest of a breeder.
     
    Getting everything in writing before your dog leaves your care (which you yourself said would  be happening) is crucial...no matter how much you think you "trust" your breeder...
     
    You (general you's from here out) need to look out for your dog...not your ego...or the breeders. It's cutthroat out there at times...and you have to be aware how to protect yourself. I have seen the very best come out in people when showing...and I have seen the very, very worst.
     
    I'm not sure you needed to ask for advice or input at all tho, given what you've written...lol....*shrug*
    • Gold Top Dog
    Ahh last thing....never ever forget that as a stud owner YOU are also responsible for the puppies produced during your stud's lifetime.
     
    Disease, temperament issues, conformational faults...do pop up...and the stud is ALWAYS blamed more than the bitch...rightly or no.
     
    It is something to consider along with all the rest. As in all things involved with breeding...responsibility is the word to live by.
    • Bronze
    ORIGINAL: Leroi

      Obviously if he starting marking all over the house and humping anything that breathed, we would chop the cherries off, but we'd like to wait and see what happens.  It can't hurt to give him a chance, I don't think.

     
     
     
     
    I would also like to point out that neutering AFTER the behavior is already started may not correct the behavior.  Once they learn the behavior, neutering does not always un-learn it.  Keep that in mind, too.  Sometimes when you wait and see, it's already too late. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: luvinmydoggies

    ORIGINAL: Leroi

    Obviously if he starting marking all over the house and humping anything that breathed, we would chop the cherries off, but we'd like to wait and see what happens.  It can't hurt to give him a chance, I don't think.





    I would also like to point out that neutering AFTER the behavior is already started may not correct the behavior.  Once they learn the behavior, neutering does not always un-learn it.  Keep that in mind, too.  Sometimes when you wait and see, it's already too late. 


    Yes, but at the same time, the longer you wait to nueter them the healthier they are.  They develope better muscle mass and hormones that prevent them from being hyper, dumb puppy all their lives if you wait to fix them.

    I am pro spaying a nuetering, but I do think that it is healthier to wait until the dog is at least 6 months, longer depending on the dog.

    Oh and by the way, who ever keeps saying "entire," it's intact.
    • Gold Top Dog
    who ever keeps saying "entire," it's intact

     
    Or unaltered, or uncastrated, or entire, or unneutered...lmao....what a silly thing to correct.
    Different words for different parts of the state, country, continent, world.... [sm=lol.gif]
     
     
    • Silver
    I say give it a shot! Try out the show scene and see if it is something you enjoy. If you don't enjoy showing yourselves, you can always decide later to hire a professional handler. That can get to be pretty expensive, though. It sounds like the breeder may also be interested in showing this boy. That is up to you to decide. The arrangement can be all sorts of ways. How close is the breeder to you? One common scenario is that the owner pays the entry fees and the breeder will show the dog for free. If this boy turns out nicely, it will add to the breeder's prestige for him to be out in the show ring. The breeders I know who place a show puppy locally will often get them the day before the show weekend, and they go home after the weekend. Or they meet the owners at the show, handle the dog in the ring, and hand him back to the owners.
     
    Your first step would be to work on getting your puppy well-socialized to the show environment. Look for some conformation handling classes in your area. Look for matches (practice shows.) For most matches, you sign up the morning of the match. Don't worry that your puppy is not trained, they have low expectations of behavior from puppies. Handling classes are usually drop-in, where you pay per class. Your breeder should be able to give you advice on finding classes. Even if you don't know what you are doing and decide to have someone else show the dog, the socialization to that environment is invaluable.
     
    If my breeder wants to stud my dog, do I have to pay them to do that, too?

     
    Absolutely not. This is your dog. They pay you. Of course, if your breeder does the work, has the contacts, etc. you may have to split the fee.