Taking food from your dog's mouth

ORIGINAL: barngirl
My foster dog Charlie had a problem with resource guarding when I first got her, and that was one of the first things I worked on with her because it is soooo important to me. I can now walk up to her and take whatever bone she has away from her, or stick my hand in her bowl while she's eating because she knows I'm not just going to take anything away and not give it or something even better back to her.

Most of the responses came from those that were able to train this into their dogs from a young age.  I can touch anywhere or take anything from either of my Shih Tzu boys that I raised from 12 weeks. (not to mention their bite doesn't scare me as much because of their size!)  My 80 lb foster dog; however, is another story.  He will let me touch and inspect his teeth, belly, and feet, but he has snapped at me quite a few times for reaching for a special bone or for something I didn't want him to have.  It seems to depend on what it is, because I've taken sticks, corn stalks, etc. from him with no issue.  Since these snapping (not biting) incidents had all occurred shortly after I took him in, I had the "bright idea" that maybe over the past 6 months he has come to trust me more and decided to pet him as he was eating his plain dog food.  He is fine with this UNLESS you get too close to his mouth - then he does the vicious sounding snap. If he had bitten me, I would have accepted full responsibilty, because I knew better.
So, how did you work with Charlie on this - to the extent that you have children that can now take her bone??!!  How long did that take?  And how is she with other dogs in the household; does she still guard her possesions around them?  What kind of dog is Charlie?  I feed my foster in his crate because 1) It creates a warm-fuzzy feeling about being in his crate 2) It protects my other pets and any visitors that may no know better than to get too close.  Sometimes if he is in his crate with something special/yummy, and one of my little Tzu dogs gets too close to his crate, he will give a big vicious bark and shake the crate - my little dog jumps back and comes trotting over to me like, "Mom! did you see what he did to me?!" 

a lower status dog can defend its treasure from a higher status dog - it's a canine "etiquette".

 
"Bones" is my favorite book but perhaps the keyword in the above quote is "can". My little ones can try to defend a treasure from others (most notably Ruby) but when she feels like it she just takes whatever they have that she wants. It doesn't appear to be a matter of higher or lower status. In the moment her attitude seems more like "I can and I'm going to."

{Edited for redundancy (ie, train/condition early and you should be able to reach into your dog's mouth w/proper respect and approach, should they be unable to drop whatever is in question.)
Leaving the line that led to clarification posts below.  []}

I would never presume to do that with a dog I don't know, or with the wrong approach.  Safety first.  But to say you should never reach into your dog's mouth seems ludicrous to me.  If she could die from a blocked airway or whatnot, that line in that book means nothing to me.

Well, I think it was already explained that in the original context that line wasn't meant to say you should never remove an object from your dog's mouth even if it's something dangerous. That's preposterous. But it is something to keep in mind when you are training, and it's also pretty good proof that in dogs "dominance" doesn't mean "I get to take anything I want from you any time." That line from the book also helped me interperate what I was seeing from my own dogs when we first became a multi-dog household.

The only things I've ever really had to pry out of Marlowe's mouth have been live (though soon to be quite dead) squirrels. For him this is the highest value item imaginable in the universe and while he doesn't get aggressive towards me over them, he will try pretty hard to gobble before I can get my hand in there and remove. I've never been hurt in the process, just annoyed. Conrad has gaurded a few times with me in his life, and I've always been able to defuse the situation without actually having to mix it up with him. Just a command to go to his crate and he'll leave whatever he had behind and there's no hard feelings.

Just to add, S. Clothier never said you should never do that. She said, we should train our dogs to voluntarily give up any objects by desensitizing: i) trade, ii) give a dog a treat and iii) that object back. Just what most people have been doing here. She mentioned that there is something to be said about 'saving the face', and that by struggling with your dog to get it out, you might "win the battle but loose a war".

it's also pretty good proof that in dogs "dominance" doesn't mean "I get to take anything I want from you any time."

Understood and accepted.  As for the line, context is everything, it seems. []
 
As for the question about how to deal with the foster dog, per spiritdogs: Jean Donaldson's book "Mine! A Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs" will shed some light on this aspect of dog behavior and give you a good protocol to follow for training a dog to respect humans around his food.
 
Let me ask, though, does anyone think it's desireable for children to take bones/other resources from any dog in their home?  If the dog acquiesces without issue, great, but I don't think I'd really have that as a concrete expectation. 

ORIGINAL: miranadobe
 Let me ask, though, does anyone think it's desireable for children to take bones/other resources from any dog in their home? If the dog acquiesces without issue, great, but I don't think I'd really have that as a concrete expectation.

I would discourage any child from approaching any dog (even my submissive Shih Tzu!) when he/she is eating or has a bone.  It would give me great peace of mind to know that the dog would not hurt a non dag-savy child if this should happen, but I wouldn't "test it" much less encourage or have that expectation.

I will check out the Jean Donaldson book.  I'm not trying to just take food from him to prove to him that I can; but are times that he picks something up that I don't want him to have.  I have gotten to the point where I can either distract him with a cue  to "sit" (doesn't work if he really likes what he has though), or if I take off running from him in the opposite direction, 95% of the time he will drop whatever he has for a game of chase.

I can usually hold out my hand and ask for whatever Emma has in her mouth, and I'll get it. If it's high value, I say, "Wanna TRADE???" and she races over to the treat cabinet, leaving her object (something like a cooked bone that someone dropped) where she was standing. "Trade" is one of the best things I ever taught her. Anne told me to do that, when she was a nasty little puppy, and it's been SO valuable. I'd reccomend it to anyone.

Teenie's learning "trade", but I can take stuff from her with very little opposition (she grumbles).

ORIGINAL: tzumommy

ORIGINAL: barngirl
My foster dog Charlie had a problem with resource guarding when I first got her, and that was one of the first things I worked on with her because it is soooo important to me. I can now walk up to her and take whatever bone she has away from her, or stick my hand in her bowl while she's eating because she knows I'm not just going to take anything away and not give it or something even better back to her.

Most of the responses came from those that were able to train this into their dogs from a young age.  I can touch anywhere or take anything from either of my Shih Tzu boys that I raised from 12 weeks. (not to mention their bite doesn't scare me as much because of their size!)  My 80 lb foster dog; however, is another story.  He will let me touch and inspect his teeth, belly, and feet, but he has snapped at me quite a few times for reaching for a special bone or for something I didn't want him to have.  It seems to depend on what it is, because I've taken sticks, corn stalks, etc. from him with no issue.  Since these snapping (not biting) incidents had all occurred shortly after I took him in, I had the "bright idea" that maybe over the past 6 months he has come to trust me more and decided to pet him as he was eating his plain dog food.  He is fine with this UNLESS you get too close to his mouth - then he does the vicious sounding snap. If he had bitten me, I would have accepted full responsibilty, because I knew better.
So, how did you work with Charlie on this - to the extent that you have children that can now take her bone??!!  How long did that take?  And how is she with other dogs in the household; does she still guard her possesions around them?  What kind of dog is Charlie?  I feed my foster in his crate because 1) It creates a warm-fuzzy feeling about being in his crate 2) It protects my other pets and any visitors that may no know better than to get too close.  Sometimes if he is in his crate with something special/yummy, and one of my little Tzu dogs gets too close to his crate, he will give a big vicious bark and shake the crate - my little dog jumps back and comes trotting over to me like, "Mom! did you see what he did to me?!" 

Charlie-Girl is most likely a border collie/husky cross female that has a very dominate personality. I noticed that she was really bad about resource guarding the first day so I started right then on working with her on it. First I hand fed her quite a bit, never her full meal because I didn't have the time (shes a sloooow eater!!!), and of course I was working on obediance with her where I would be handing her treats. Next I started holding the bowl while she ate, then progressed to setting it down and petting her (on her back, away from her head in a non-threatening area of her body) and talking sweetly while she ate, then I just slowly started moving my hand forward until I was petting her head while she ate. Now I want to mention that I wasn't doing this the whole time she was eating, most of the time it was just a quick couple minutes so that I didn't go so far as to annoy her. Charlie tends to be the cuddly type of dog so she loves gettting loved on so I just made sure it was long enough for her to enjoy but not long enough to annoy the crap out of her. Once she was good with that I started with a handful of treats that she loved and I would be petting her then I would show her the treat and put my hand IN her bowl and drop it in. After a little while of this she got to where the sight of my hand in her bowl simply meant that something really good was being dropped off for her, once she was good with that, I started picking up her bowl for a minute, putting something really tasty in it and giving it back. I can now pet her while she's eating or take away her food dish without any problems because I've only ever done it when I left her something good in return.
   It was pretty much the same process with her bones as with her food, except I skipped the petting and went straight to the offering treats in return. My dogs are almost always chewing on a bone of some sort so I had lots of opportunity to work on this with her, basically I would every once in a while go over to her while she was chewing on a bone and at first I would just get her attention, and once she looked at me I would give her a treat. I would then walk away and resume doing whatever it was I was doing. Occasionally she would growl at me when she thought I came too close to her and her bone and then I would say very firmly "Charlie NO", and as soon as she stopped growling I would praise her with a "GOOD GIRL!!!" and walk away. If I were you, I would start with something that he doesn't mind giving up for a tasty treat (maybe a stick or a toy he's not incredibly attached to) and start teaching him the "Give it" or "trade" command. Once he consistantly gives you the stick then advance to something he likes a bit more, and keep doing that until you are working with a bone that he really wants. Once he understands that most of the time your not going to take the bone, and even if you do he's getting something better in return he'll have no problem with you being around him and his bone. Right now he's assuming you want that bone as much as him and he really doesn't want you to have it.
  My two dogs do growl at each other when the other gets too close to their bone, but I think thats fine. That is simply their warning that the other dog should not try to take it from them, it's the same as me telling my brother "dont touch that, it's mine". Now if one of my dogs attacks the other one, he/she will get punished and the bone will disapear for a while,,,but as long as they stick to warning each other I think it's fine. Unlike us, the other dog does really want his bone and he knows it,,,if he isn't able to warn that dog off then his bone will disappear and that is the last thing that he wants to happen!!!!!
  miranadobe,,,,no I do not think it is ok nor do I approve of children taking anything from a dog, and any kid that does it to my dogs will get reprimanded for it. But, I do often have little kids (under the age of 4) in my house and I would be irresponsible if I did not take appropriate precautions to make sure if one of those kids tried to take something from my dog, or even to just pet them while they are trying to eat/chew something that the dog would be ok with it. Typically my dogs just move away when they see a kid coming while they have a bone, and I'm right behind them telling that child to not bother the dog while he's eating. So although I do not think it's reasonable to expect my dogs to let kids take things from them, or do I believe it's right to let kids take things from my dogs,,,,I do the best I can to ensure that if for some reason one of the kids gets close to my dogs while they are eating or chewing that nothing will happen and everyone will stay safe.

The topic of dog communication is very different than being able to remove something from your dog's mouth.  Her sections on what is "alpha" and ack leader are very insightful.  The idea of "because I said so" (my interpretation of her words) method of dog training or management is limiting.  The relationship is the key.

 
Exactly right... I love Clothier, and I love Bones. What she is getting at in regards to this subject is that in the dog world, the law of possession says that when the dog has something it is his. Dogs do not steal from one another, unless they are being rude[], and possession of resources has zero to do with social status or pack status. Patricia McConnell goes over the same thing if I recall correctly. Clothier takes issue with the common practice of "training" a dog not to resource guard by constantly taking things out of his mouth, because it's confrontational and rude and disrespectful to your dog, and I agree with her on that. I also think that's a great way to create a resource guarder. Dogs should not resource guard from humans... I believe they do recognize us as 'other' than canine and they should be comfortable with you taking something from them if you must, but be respectful about it. To make a bit of a clunky analogy, I'm okay with you slapping a mosquito off my arm, but not with you slapping my arm repeatedly for no reason just to prove that I should be okay with it. []
 
I find evidence of that way of thinking in my own dog, whom I raised from 8 weeks in a house with a (now former) roommate. My roommate would constantly, every day, grab tennis balls right out of Russell's mouth in order to throw them and play fetch (couldn't get him to stop that). That ended up being the one and only thing in the world Russell guards from humans... because he's so docile with people, by "guards" I only mean he hoards and won't give up for anything, but still, I can't help but think that he learned to be guardy of his tennis balls because basically he had reason to be!

Just got an email from the library that my request for this book is in, I am going to get it tomorrow night and spend the weekend reading!
 
I am looking forward to this book and several others that have been mentioned. My relationship with Babe was solid, so taking things out of her mouth or checking her mouth was easy, I had more issues with cutting her nails then anything.
 
With Kord, we started early with drop it, leave it, and touching his face and mouth, it came in handy when he decided to get into the kitty cat cookie box where I had clumping litter, hubby left the gate down for a whole 2 seconds, and he did a grab, needless to say I was pulling chunks of stuff out of his mouth, and then cleaning his teeth and mouth with water to make sure there was nothing huge in there. Was a sight to see.
 
I will also say that some dogs just "know" when they have forbidden items, Kord will find something or actually reach into a low desk garbage can and grab pieces of paper and he will do it with me watching, knowing darn well I am going to tell him to drop it. I also will take a toy or prize away to make sure that it is still in "chewing" shape and then give it back if it is. The best and by far funniest thing was when he casually walked past the coffee table and leaned over just enough to steal the paper bookmark out of my husbands book, he took off running for he knew it was a no no, and he did drop it, mangled and wet, but it did drop.
 
Dawn

I admit that I'm not comfortable taking stuff that is already inside my dog's mouth. I have yet to teach her "Drop it" or "Trade". However, she is not a resource guarder or possessive of anything. I can pick up her marrow bone, toy or dish without getting any kind of upset reaction from her.  

Gracie will "leave it" most of the time . . .but sometimes we have to add the gutteral "ahh, ahh, ahh" to get her to leave a really choice piece of contraband. And if it's something she normally gets as a treat, like cheese, then sometimes its gone before I can say anything. The other day she tried to sneak a slice of American cheese out of the baby's hand and I told her "ahh, ahh, ahh, LEAVE IT!" and she let go of it, whereby the baby promptly popped it in her mouth! Ewww! 

I've actually never given it any thought as I reach in my dogs mouths to remove whatever I want.  I don't know that they allow it because they respect me or if they just don't care.

I think another good piece of advice to take from Clotheir's statement is that when your dog has something prized in their mouth and is not relinquishing it or is gaurding it, that is really not the time for training. Training happens in controlled situations where you have set things up for success. A situation in which your dog is in the midst of gaurding from you calls for defusing the situation as gently as possible and making a mental note to train at a later time. Forcibly taking something from a guarding dogs just proves to the dog that they were right all along--the human was going to take the object from them and not give it back.

I actually keep little caches of treats on every floor of the house just in case I need to reward on the fly for leaving or dropping or coming, or if I need to do a trade.