why i didn't buy from a "reputable" breeder

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

Oh, Joel how I missed ye.

Me, too.  He must have a new IP.  Or a twin. []

But name change or no...leopard's can't change their spots, nor a broken record heal the scratch! [sm=biggrin.gif]

Stop already--here's why.

1. You're actually kinda fun when you don't do this.

2. Every single breeder I have met in my limited experience has been pathologically social--people who go out of their way to talk about their dogs and be accomodating. I have yet to meet a snobby breeder, or even an aloof or obtuse breeder. Every single breeder I have met has gone out of their way to talk about their dogs.

3. Besides, back when you weren't calling Ernie Sparky you were willing to admit that you just made a choice out of ignorance, based on what you want. So what? Why fabricate? A lot of people do this, and noone here is going to say anything about Spernkie except that he is a great lucky dog with a great owner who cares about him. No one has. Which brings me to my last point:

4. Nobody is jumping at you about this issue but YOU. I think you do this because it makes everyone bend over backwards saying how great Ernie is, and surely you already know this in your heart and do not need to stir the turd around here to get affirmation.

Relax, Farajoel.

stir the turd around here to get affirmation
 
I think that's the root of the whole issue....well put. I also remember that being the story at that time.
 
P.S. I was going to call him FaraJoel too but decided against it lol!

So if I am deemed worthy of a breeders pup and my deposit is accepted, but there are only 3 pups in the litter, I'm just out of luck.

that's where patience comes in. You don't "settle" for what's around, or at least I don't...you wait until a better time to get what you want, or find someone at the same level, with similar lines, many times the breeder you start with will help with this.

I think people should rethink the term byb. Mine stands behind my puppy 100%. I think threre are are good bybs that really care and some are just in for the money.

Before I was into dogs, Osama Bin Mama used to take us to the IKC dog show which is held every year in Chicago. I remember her taking us as far back to when I was 7 years old. Even when I was a wee psychopath, I loved to ask questions and I loved to pet the dogs. The dogs I petted were owned by responsible breeders and my questions were answered by responsible breeders. I'm 31 now and I've gone to various dog shows in this country. Maybe I've been lucky but I've never met anyone "snooty" in the dog fancy. Everyone was more than happy to talk about their dogs and they were more than happy to provide information regarding the breeds.
 
When I was on the hunt for a dog, I contacted several breeders and if they didn't have what I was looking for, they had no problem referring me to someone who did. I've emailed various breeders of various breeds all the time. I've never had a problem with them not answering my questions and I even went so far as to ask about price. I can honestly tell you that if you email someone for the first time and the only thing you ask is "How much?", you probably won't get a response. Now if you email someone something along the lines of "I am interested in this particular breed. I've been doing a bit of research and I'm trying to find a responsible breeder who has what I like. I think your dogs are absolutely beautiful and I was wondering if you can tell me more about your breeding program. Are your dogs shown and proven in conformation? Tested for defects known to afflict the breed? Can you show me their pedigrees?" and when a breeder sees something like that, they feel you've done a bit of research and are more than willing to open up a dialogue. I would say by the second or third email you could ask "If you don't mind, can you tell me what you charge for a pet(or show) quality dog?" and they'll tell you.
 
I just think it depends on how you carry yourself. Responsible breeders are in the minority. They breed for the health and preservation of the breeds. They breed when they want to contribute something positive to the breed and they don't breed often. They tend to be a bit more expensive and a bit more choosier than BYB's. Because of that, they can deal with a lot of people who want a "Cadillac" at a "Ford Focus" price. After a while, I can imagine the "How much? Why so much? Well so and so down the block sells their dogs for $100, why are yours more? I need a dog by Christmas. I need a stud dog for my bitch in heat right now. I have a stud dog you can use." questions get played out. So if you compose an email/speak on the phone/ speak in person and you act in a sincere manner and are willing to talk about the breed, you're more likely to find out a lot of answers than you would if the first thing you ask is "how much?" because they're going to think all you're doing is window shopping for a bargain and they aren't going to waste your or their time.
 
To make a long story short, I'm not a rich person. I'm a single mother. I'm Mexican too [] and if I have managed to get responsible breeders of 3 different breeds to sell me dogs, and there are lots of other responsible breeders who would sell me a dog as well based on what they know of me, then virtually anyone can get a dog from a responsible breeder. You just gotta be somewhat educated on the breed you are interested in or you have to be willing to shut your trap, open your ears and listen and you have to have patience. If you can do all that, then it's all good.

I haven't read this whole thread because I would end up becoming angry and disappointed for sure.  My mentor will not sell to some people becuase a Russell is not a match for their lifestyle.  Would you place your dog with someone who you didn't 100% trust?  Even for just a weekend?  A person who is very well educated in dogs should know that reputable breeders don't advertise because they usually have waiting lists.  And, many of them are members of the breed club and spend time educating potential owners.

There are people who shouldn't own PLANTS, let alone any sentient being!

When I was ready to purchase Gypsy, I called the Responsible Dog Breeders of Oregon and got a reccomendation form them.  They told me to call Gypsy's breeder.

I told her that I had spent a year and a half researching Am Staffs and that my last girl was a Pit mix, so I was familiar with bull breeds and the pros and cons of owning one. I explained about our living situation,  how old my DSs were, that we had a cat, that we didn't have a  ton of money but that any animal who lives in our house is treated like royalty for its ENTIRE life. I also said that I was active and young enough to properly exercise a dog of this size and strength. I told her I had trained many dogs, that I wasn't perfect at it and that I stll had things to learn. It took me three MONTHS to convince her I was right for one of her babies. FWIW, she told me right off how much her puppies cost.  I hadn't even asked yet; she offered the price on her own. She also will have no problems selling me another puppy in the future. She will also take back a dog for ANY reason at any time in its life. Will your dog's breeder do that?  If you don't know, ASK.

As for snootiness, I haven't seen this much.  However, as a shelter volunteer, I can tell you that I look at everyone who comes in with a jaded eye.  I have heard ALL of the excuses, plus new ones (!) every day. I don't want to adopt out a happy-go-lucky puppy to a person and have it turned in four months down the road beacuse it "bites everything in sight".  We later discover that the dog is a fear biter, hand shy and has been tied outside and nearly starved to death.  The people wonder why the dog is now food aggressive! Gee, if I didn't know where my next meal was coming from, I would guard what I had just like the dog! So, step down from the so-called perfect owner pedestal and take a hard look at yourself: it's possible you were coming off as an arrogant -know-it-all rather than as someone who wants to actually LEARN something about the breed you're interested in.

ORIGINAL: houndlove

Also, want to talk about health and behavioral problems? Pet store puppies are notoriously way undersocialized, come complete with massive health problems both genetic and as a result of poor living conditions, and are frequently impossible to housetrain because they learned early on that eliminating where you sleep is the only option and they got used to it.

Okay, we all know a lot of pet shops are irresponsible with puppies, but I've been to pet shops that let their puppies run around the store for periods if the store had a secure door, and I've been to pet shops were the staff taught the puppies basic manners, and to pet shops that didn't have a secure door, but had a large play pen where the pups could play and hang out and be touched by people passing by.

Jill came from a pet shop and she's sound in body and mind. She was easy to housetrain, she's a natural body type, so no physical issues, and she's a crossbreed, so no genetic health problems (so far). She was healthy when we got her and has been healthy ever since. She adores everyone, is very safe with other animals and dogs, and has no behavioural problems in the least.

Now, she didn't come from your typical puppy-mill supporting pet shop, which is why my mother decided to buy her. It was a pet shop she knew had a good reputation and she approved of the way the dogs were kept.

When I was getting my first dog, we couldn't afford a well bred dog. None of the shelters had anything that was suitable for a 13 year old's first dog. I'd been begging for a year for this dog and now that I'd finally been granted permission to get one, I really wanted one right away! We got Penny from a BYB, not of the puppy milling type, or the accident type, but the "I love puppies" type. I met the mother and the grandmother and the grandmother was registered, though not showed. My mother took the opportunity to teach me to check the health of the pups and the parents, the temperament of the closest relatives, the living conditions, what they were being fed, and to ask about everything under the sun, basically.

I've maybe been lucky with Penny in that she's had no genetic health problems or behavioural problems and I've never needed to track down the original breeder for advice. Mother has been lucky with Jill in the same areas. Or was it luck? Maybe you can pick a decent pup from any source if you're taught what to look for. There are still pet shops my mother and I wouldn't even consider getting an animal of any sort from, but there are also breeders we wouldn't consider getting an animal from. My mother learnt what to look for in puppies from reading old school books when she was a kid and first finding her way with dogs, so I feel like the information is out there in abundance and easy to come by.

fisher: 

Why fabricate?

 
i have no idea of what fabrication you are talking about...besides names being changed to protect the innocent....i write with passion because i speak what i believe to be the truth...my family laughs at my inability to lie.
 
i would still get a goldendoodle again...but that is not the issue i care to discuss or argue anymore...it is old and played out for the most part, and it is impossible to discuss one aspect of the issue at a time on this forum...there are other, more subtle sides to the breeding issue, for those who can discern subtle changes in the direction of an argument.
 
also, i am trying very hard to ignore rude, personal attacks when someone is incapable of dealing with the issues (not referring to you, fisher)...i do not want to discuss this last point further....so attack away if you can't discuss without avoiding the issue...i remember now why certain people made me cringe.

So, you want to complain about a tough breeder and don't want to hear back why it's tougher to buy a dog from a breeder than a pet store?. Or that you don't want to hear about the ethics of proper breeding? That you're enough of a genetic expert that we would just be wasting your time?
 
My dog is a great dog but he is a mixed breed, a mutt. Because I like him doesn't mean that I agree with the breeding that created him. Now, he was most likely from an oops litter, but I don't know. His breeder is hard to locate and most likely wouldn't want to hear a lecture on the ethics of breeding, either.
 
I would also say that one or two hard-to-know breeders shouldn't dissuade one from still seeking a legitimate breeder. But, in their defense, for them, it's not about the money, it's about the breed. But a high price will separate the serious from the people who should think about it some more.
 
Then, again, you can find purebreds at the shelter.
 
 

a novice wouldn't know why to waste his time with an annoying breeder (besides that i personally think a good number of them are actually half nuts).

 
A 'novice' should have done enough research on the breed & puppies before going to buy one, so they would know what to expect from the breeders. Before adopting Scout, I was interested in an Entlebucher pup. I was a 'novice', being that it was my first time purchasing a purebred dog and my first time with this breed. I hopped on the breed club's website, and they had a link - "What to look for in a good breeder", which detailed every step and expectation of the purchase process. Voila - I was educated!
 
The breeders I contacted had me fill out the application, even though there were no litters available at the time. The application was everything a dog-loving person would want to know before handing over their puppies- are you financially capable of doing vet visits and dealing with emergencies? Do you have a decent backyard or at least a nearby off-leash area for exercise? etc etc....
 
Was I sad that I would have to wait 5+ months to get my pup? Sure! But what's 5 months when you're talking about 15 years of companionship with the right dog? Was $2000 a steep price for a puppy? Yes! But $2000 is an investment in a 15 year commitment, which will be aided by health guarantees and support from the breeder.
 
I ended up adopting from a shelter instead, since deep inside that has always been my plan.
 
For novices who want to find out about the purchasing process, the resources are abundant and they are out there. Reputable breeders may be picky but they are not impossible.
 
Aside from that, there are plenty of PUPPIES (yes, 8 week old puppies) at shelters needing homes. They are not shelter-freaks that will need years of rehab. Just puppies. It bothers me to see people support a breeder who does not care enough about dogs to at least screen their applicants first.

OK, from my understanding of reading these posts, the OP states that the reason he did not buy his dog from a "reputable" breeder is because the "reputable" breeders were either snooty or wanted too much information, i.e. the process was too difficult for the run of the mill pet owner.  Well IMO, too bad, thats how it should be. [] I think anyone selling any living creature, dog, cat, ferret, rat, whatever should be scrupulous as to who they sell to.  Buying a living creature is a big decsion and if the person selling this living creature doesn't know you from Adam, then they have the right to get to know you however they see fit.  Anyone who sells a living creature without such high criteria is doing a dis-service to the animal and has very little respect for life, IMO. 

We live in an age of instant gratification, when we decide we want something, we want it yesterday.  Just because the potential buyer has done all the research does not mean they are qualified to own a particular dog, especially if they have either never owned that particular breed or a dog at all.  The breeder has to "do right" by their dogs.  If a person who is new to dogs calls up and asks about their dogs and they feel this person is not a right fit, then they are entitled to deny them a dog, period.  After all a breeder who has been living, breeding XXX breed for XXX years has a bit for experience than average Joe looking to buy this dog for the first time. 
 
I just wanted to add that just because going the reputable breeder route is hard, does not excuse going to BYB, thats just the lazy man's excuse.  IMO, anything worth getting takes patience and WORK. []

dasher,
 
yes, a breeder has the right to do what they think is right, and to be willing to err on the side of caution.
 
on the other hand, it is ridiculous for people on this forum to say to a novice that they should have gone to these breeders...the breeders do not want them.
 
i was not claiming that all (or the majority) of these breeders are snooty people...i was relating my own experience, and what i believe it is a common occurence...i think that these same breeders would NOT be snooty to me now...i have a track record with a dog now, and understand their culture...i know what buttons i should press, and shouldn't press...but many probably are snooty to novices, as they were to me.
 
as far as doing homework, i DID my homework, and ended up with a great dog without going to one of these breeders...i think it was due to homework, good intuition, and some luck....i have no feelings of sour grapes.
 
the type of homework i personally believe in, is to know how to find a good dog from a shelter...or to find a good dog from a good "for-profit breeder"....i will not bother doing homework hoping that an elitist breeder might accept me.
 
i personally believe that there are "for-profit" breeders who love their dogs, and with knowledge and caution, strive to "create" high quality dogs...besides loving dogs, they understand that high quality can be profitable, just like in other businesses....it doesn't HAVE to be a contradiction between profit and caring....i will do my homework to find them.
 
for my own taste, i would not go to a breeder that did not believe in the need to outcross occasionally in order to improve the genetic diversity of the breed, even though it would in small part change the physical standard of the breed.
 
 i have referenced a whole website on this subject on another thread.
 
from what i read, the "responsible" breeders, although dedicated and knowledgeable in certain areas, are still practicing a "PURE" breed philosophy from the 19th century that still has not taken into account modern studies of genetic health in a given population.