Breeding bulldogs? Ethical?

Mudpuppy...who is "we"? Can you not be brave enough to say "you" think they should die out?
 
what a very unkind statement considering that we have members with Bulldogs on the forum...to say that their dogs should die out. I want to go officially on record as saying I do NOT agree at all...with Mudpuppy's statements.
 
AmBulldogs and the other breeds as well and many, many others would not even exist without the Bulldogs "unhealthy" genes. The Bulldog has lent it's genes to many breeds, and it deserves some respect for that and IMO it deserves to continue for that, that and the joy they bring their owners every day...talk about seeing only a small piece of the picture.
 

First - not ALL English bulldogs are miserable creatures with lifethreatening breathing, skin and joint problems. I have friends who have had bulldogs for 15+ years and both their rescue dogs and pups from breeders have been wonderful, loving pets with no more than the usual problems associated with old age. Yes, this breed has a much higher percentage of defects, but there is still a great precentage of healthy, happy dogs.

But because there are problems, breeders have created the "Olde English Buldogge" breed recently to bring the Modern English Bulldog back to it's original type.

The modern Olde English Bulldogge is a reconstruction of the original Olde Bulldogge of the 17th and 18th century. Various genetic crosses have been used in carefully and thoughtfully planned breeding programs to obtain this goal.  The foundation of most of today's Olde English Bulldogges can be traced to English Bulldog, American Bulldog, APBT and Mastiff.

These dogs  were used very selectively in various combinations to obtain the desired physical and mental traits of the original Olde English Bulldogge.  The result has been a good looking Bulldogge of great athletic ability that is much healthier and physically fit without most or all of the problems that plague today's modern English Bulldogs.  The goal of all Olde English Bulldogge breeders should be to produce genetically healthier Bulldogges that are free breathers, free breeders, and free whelpers.

[linkhttp://www.ioeba.net/ioebaoebhistory.htm]Olde English Bulldogge[/link]

I do believe breeding should be more responsible for a great number of breeds, but it won't happen until the registries, judges, breeders, and fanciers all get on track and insist on better genetics. It's starting to happen, but all breeding issues take many generations to take effect. The congenital problems didn't happen overnight and they won't be fixed overnight. So we'll just have to love the doggies we have, and work to make the next generation of dogs better.

Gina,
 
My breed has alot of people like me, thankfully.  We've had 2 or 3 rescues in the last 2 years, and already on our forum we're talking about more stringent screening processes for potential buyers.  I got my new girl as a breeder rescue and we had to pull alot of strings for that to happen.
 
I love beagles, but I see so many uneducated beagle owners.  I know that beagles are tireless hunters and if allowed to, will hunt just about all day/night long.  And I would use that scenting ability in games-most beagle owners just want Snoopy. 
 
I hate to get too off topic here...so I'll get back on topic.  In response to mudpuppy: I understand your POV, but I don't agree with it.  I think that the American Bulldog and the other varieties of bulldogs are interesting and seperate breeds but the original English Bulldog has a great history and shouldn't be left to "die off" without trying to improve the breed from the stock that exists.
 
An interesting sidenote is that one of the reasons that dogs seem to have so many more problems today-and this includes all breeds-is that the bloodlines are so much smaller.  Spay and Neuter programs are great for keeping your pets from creating unwanted/un-planned litters, however these programs also have the negative effect of creating smaller gene pools for certain breeds that do not have a large and diverse gene pool in these United States.  Imported stock is required in a lot of breeds with small registration numbers- and it is getting harder to get hardy stock to import.  The difficulty lies more in foriegn dog fanciers not wanting their bloodlines and thus gene pools limited by elimination of a champion from the lines.
 
Look at the Jindo Dog stock which the Koreans have allowed to be exported to the US.  They have sent over dogs which they consider inferior, whether in temperment or in type.  Also look at the differences between the Akita in the US and the Japanese Akita Inu.  Look at the Azawakh which have been imported to the US and the stock in N. Africa- the Africans are keeping the dogs which have the correct temperment and drives-so the foundation stock in the US is already sub-par.
 
So I guess what I'm saying is that while the conformation dogs have evolved, that evolution is not necessarily a healthy one-and that limiting the gene pool allows certain defects to become dominant traits.  This is the case with the Bulldog, and even though the bloodlines are limited, the Bulldog does not need to be eliminated; what needs to happen is the parent clubs and hobbyists need to get together and find a strategy for improving the overall health of the breed to ensure it's longevity.

I personally dont believe that any breed should be eliminated.
 
My concern was why did they breed them in the first place? I think English bulldogs are beautiful dogs with wonderful temperments but I just dont know why anyone would breed a dog knowing it would have so many health/breeding issues.
 
The same can be said for a lot of breeds including Dals who have a tendancy to be deaf (although I love my deaf girl), have hip dysplacia, are stone formers, have epilepsy, exc. I guess really now that I think about it but every breed has health problems. Some more than others.
 
But I say we have the breed and all EB breeders I have spoken with have been top of the top and very selective with the dogs they breed. *l* So finally to answer your question, I think breeding bulldogs is as ethical as breeding any breed who has health issues.

I think it's unethical to breed most purebred dogs.  Especially Bulldogs and other dogs that don't fit together right. 
 
First off, I urge you to pick up the book called "Dogs" by Raymond Coppinger.  Natural dogs evolved on their own with no help from man except the fact they started having permanent settlements.  Dogs evolved to suit their environment and climate...natural dogs, the forefathers of our current purebreds still exist all over the world...they are normally referreed to as Curr's, Mongrels, Mutts...when in fact our purebreds were created from Mutts.  I call purebred dogs inbred Mutts[]
 
So, then man takes an interest in dogs with their low drives and use them.  selective breeding did not start until a few hundred years ago.  Sheep herding dogs, etc all had ample opportunity to mate with any dog they wanted....and most litters were sired by more than one male to ensure vitality.
 
That is one thing that I find people get confused on.  They think first there was purebred then there were mutts...when in fact first there were mutts then recently through selective breeding there were purebreds.  So, there is no such thing as a purebred dog in the sense of a purebred Black bear etc.  So, this idea of perserving breeds is absurb...I can create a new breed tomorrow.  For dogs the healthy idea is to stop inbreeding and create larger gene pools instead of smaller.. Once a gene pool becomes small the dogs start suffering from mutations, HD, auto immune disorders and many health problems...to further the problem every time you select against a genetic disease you create worse genetic diseases.  Take a look at the  royal family when they tried to keep thier blood lines pure...the race almost fell apart and developed ample problems.  We should learn from the mistakes of others and not be so selfess as to burden our poor dogs with these mistakes. 
 
Here is a little insert on Bulldogs by Raymond Coppinger - scientist and Canine expert in the feild of biology.
 

The Bulldog is perhaps the epitome of what I find alarming and uinethical.  Take the feisty and useful butcher's dogs of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, and turn them into sporting dogs.  By the early eighteenth century, determine that tormenting a bull and risking the dog's life just for sport are unethical.  The dog then is adopted as a pet-class dog. Over time each of the traits that made it a good cattle-catch dog for the neighborhood butcher gets blown so far out of proportion that the dog now resembles something out of a horro movie
 
Their faces are so deformed they can't get their teeth to line up to chew.  With some of the miniaturized forms there is no room for their teeth and they fall out upon erupting from the gums.  Their faces are so squashed that the turbinate bones in their nostrils are tiny. Turbinate bones are covered with respiratory epithelial tissue, which helps the dog to breathe and cools it's brain.  As a result of the tiny turbinates, bulldogs and the other flat-faces have poor brain colling, poor breathing, and low oxygen tension in their blood.  Of the bulldogs that have been tested by the OFA, 70 percent have hip dysplasia.  None (zero) percent was reported with excellent hips.
 
Show quality bulldogs often can't deliver puppies naturally.  In fact, the dogs can't even breed, and have to be AI'd.  All of which causes pain.  I once asked a woman at a dog show what her boston terrier was good for.  Without hesitation she said, "He is really good at snoring"
 
Obviously the original bull-baiting dogs didn't have any of these physical charactres.  And yet someone is always willing to tell the story that the modern bulldog has the turned-up nose so that it might breathe while clinging to the bull's neck.  It is fiction.  It is rationalizing the purposeful selection for the bizarre.  But at the same time I hear people brag how their bulldogs can't even mate anymore.  They are amused by these oddities.
 
The rationalizations for developing freaks are often as bizarre as the traits that result.  Breeeders propound far-fetched factoids:   

    
 
He goes on about other breeds.  There is a huge difference between breeding a dog for a job and be healthy and have the behavioral conformation to perform.  From the dog that is just bred to look pretty in the show ring.  Most show breeders can take a perfectly wonderful breed and ruin it in a few generations. 
 
But, the bulldog is the saddest one of all.  It should be classified as animal abuse for breeding such dogs.
 
As for dog shows, a Championship title means nothing.  It only means the dog looks pretty in the show ring.  I have 3 Champion Newfoundlands at home here...they are Champions in 2 countries, Dilon is a Champion in 3, Canada, States and Bermuda.  They do not have the energy, drive or proper conformation to perform any drafting jobs...and they do not have proper conformation to swim.  They have huge coats which is not something a Newf should have.  They are being bred to make an impact  in the ring...nothing else.  I think this is sad as well.[]  

In a way I feel kind of bad for starting this thread on a negative note but I#%92ve found myself being very confused over the ethics behind this type of breeding.  I#%92ve even talked to some vets who are not happy with this method and wish there was another way.  I love the breed but at the same time I also like laberdoodles which some may also consider a new breed.  Wasn#%92t the bulldog somewhat of a surprise when it first came about?  A few dogs had an unusual appearance and strength so a group of people liked it and started breeding it?  Isn#%92t that what we are doing today with the laberdoodle?  A few people like the dog and now are doing everything they can to start a new breed?  Why can we say that 100 years ago it was alright to start a new breed but today we can#%92t? 
 
Each person will fight to the end of the earth for their breed choice.  Yes there are many out there who are in it for the money but there are also those few who do it because that is what they truly believe in.  If we love this breed so much why can#%92t we put more effort into breeding dogs who can once again birth on their own?
 
I by no means think we should end a breed simply because of the complications at birth but can#%92t we improve on the breed?  Even dogs such as the BC and husky have been altered so much from their original structure that now there are groups out there to preserver the true nature of the dog.  Is there a point that we can say we have gone too far in creating new breeds or changing old ones?  Is it right that it#%92s acceptable to do this now because we have the technology to do it where hundreds of years ago we didn#%92t?  It#%92s these questions I ask myself over and over and still haven#%92t a clue where I stand on this issue.

IMHO, if EB breeders cannot work on improving the breed (i.e.
A dog who can breed naturally, whelp with less difficulty, less skin problems etc.) then yes the breed should be eliminated. To change all these horrible problems the structure of the EB would have to change a lot. Many breeders would agree to this.
 
It is one thing to have a breed who commonly suffers from HD, and quite another to breed a dog who cant even breed themselves. HD over the years can be eliminated or greatly lessened with the right dedication, but the EB is unsound in so many ways that the only way to improve is to change the breed drastically.
 
I don#%92t think we humans should have the right to put a dog through that. Its not the same as HD, Speuters, Cropping/Docking. Now don#%92t get me wrong I love EB#%92s and if given the chance I would take one in, but how can a breeder deal with such numerous health problems that will probably never be eliminated?

I think as this is a dog board we need to be careful not to single out one breed as having so many problems they should go away because as I say...you guys sound like the anti's on the PB boards...ALL PB are this or have this temeprament....they should ALL go.

Is "only healthy, fit dogs should be bred" really that drastic? Seriously..... I know a pair of Shih Tzus, who were purchased for breeding. The pair has such serious issues that the male cannot properly mount the female, to create a tie. In my little world, AIing those Shih Tzus, to create more like them, is the same as AIing ANY dog who cannot physically create a tie. It's creating MORE unhealthy dogs. The world does not need more unhealthy dogs.

Xerxes, You speak like a breeder should speak.  A breeder should have dual championship titles...a breed should prove itself in it's line of working ability.

When you breed for working purpose dogs you are breeding for behavioral conformation...when you breed for behavioral conformation you develop the physical conformationt go along with it...not the other way around.[]

It really is sad when you see your own breed falling apart in front of your eyes.  I sit back and watch as they ruin the Newf breed....I have seen a huge difference in physical conformation (for the worse) in the Newfoundland dog.  It's amazing when you witness it yourself over the years and see how blinded show breeders become.  What they are breeding for now they make other believe is what the proper Newf's have always looked like....which they haven't.  They used to have wash and wear coats that needed little grooming...tighter face and they never used to drool as they did not have the jowels they do today.  They were smaller and square and built for swimming and drafting...now they are not. 
 
The differnce between todays breeding and yesteryear is back before dog shows etc dogs naturally bred.  In an environment like Newfoundland Canada, dog breeds developed on their own to be wonderful swimmers etc.  The genetic problems of our purebred dogs can easiely be fixed by outcrossing.  Man has to give up this weird idea that each breed is a seperate species.  I would love to see Lab's being introduced into Newfoundland breeding...create a larger gene pool, get rid of some of that coat[] 
Just seeing how the Newf's have changed and been ruined makes it so much easier to see how over time the Bulldog ended up so disfigured.[&o]
 
Xebby, there is nothing wrong with starting a discussion.  That's what these boards are for[]  We all give a bit of our own ideas, which helps you form your own ideas about what you think may be right or wrong.  If we all thought the same way it would be a very boring world.  

Cally,
 

  As for dog shows, a Championship title means nothing

 
Sadly this is true in alot of breeds but not necessarily in my breed.  In breeds with even more limited gene pools, a championship means adherence to standards and breeding stock with adherence to those standards instead of trying to "improve" the breed by breeding either larger or smaller stock, or stock with the wrong earset, or the wrong type or the wrong gait. 
 
Hounds are different than most group dogs, in that most hounds still retain the ability to actually DO their jobs.  With a few exceptions most sighthounds still retain the ability to hound their quarry and to course, and they still epitomize the breeds that they represent.  This is amazing since sighthounds have a history that stretches back, according to some cave records, up to 20,000 years. 
 
This is why it is important to the sighthound fancy to breed only dual champions-those that can conform AND perform.
 
I would also beg to differ with you in the "all dogs are mutts" debate.  But if you go back far enough into history I'm sure that you could justify it...any "dog" that exists owes it's heritage and genetics to either a wolf, or to wild dogs, jackals or coyotes and possibly foxes.  However my opinion is that it doesn't make "all dogs" purebred or otherwise, mutts.
 

Dogs evolved to suit their environment and climate...natural dogs, the forefathers of our current purebreds still exist all over the world...they are normally referreed to as Curr's, Mongrels, Mutts...

 
In fact, some are known as Pharaoh Hounds, Pariah Dogs, The American Indian Dog, The Carolina Dog, The Thai Ridgeback,The Sloughi, The Dingo, The Basenji, The Azawakh, The Saluki, and many, many more...
 

  selective breeding did not start until a few hundred years ago. 

 
Selective breeding has been in existence since dogs have been.  The strongest and smartest (Alphas, if you will) were the breeding pair.  The selection was done by the dogs themselves to ensure the vitality and strength of the pack.  When man intervened, it began with hunting dogs, the best and brightest hunters were bred to their counterparts, those with the highest prey drive, those with the most endurance, those with the best eyesight, etc,.  This ensured that man would always have food on the table, or be able to get that food.  Alot of the progeny of these dogs are still in existence, living with the nomads in the middle east, or with nomadic tribes in Northern Africa.  Note that these breeding processes still serve to make the dog a "stronger" or more viable dog. 
 
The real thing that Humans did was to create arbitrary standards for appearance of particular breeds.  This was the beginning of the end for a healthy gene pool.  Luckily there are some breeds that have been made "naturally" that is, bred for the most part, without the interference of man.  Sighthounds and other coursing hounds have an advantage because they have "bred true" for many years without the interference of man, so therefore they haven't had to experience a severely limited gene pool like many others-such as the bulldog.
 
Sorry I'm long winded here, but I am pretty passionate about this subject.

I am bowing out as it's become circular..apparently we're all doomed to not own dogs at all...because we cannot even agree on what a dog is....a man made creation or some magically spontaneously evolving wild creature..lol.
 
No wonder the motto of AR is divide and conquer. Dog people seem to have a really hard time standing by each other on just about any single topic..
 
Cally...dogs have been selectively bred since antiquity so not sure where you're coming from with that one. In fact a lot of your post is really just not matching up with actual history. But hey...to each thier own.
 

You have to realize that when I started this tread I started with a very one sided point of view.  The only connection I have made with bulldogs has been watching pups being pulled of the mother dead or very deformed.  On this forum we strive to promote healthy dogs so I could not understand why breeding a dog know to have health problems was ethical.
 
I really do appreciate your comments, Glenda, they have opened my eyes and realized that I may be wrong in pointing out one breed over another to put up on the stand.  There have been many topic on this forum that have made me change my mind on what I think about dogs and their care and training.  I#%92ve learned to use +R training which I would not have if I didn#%92t join this forum.  I#%92ve learned what foods to feed my dog and what to avoid.  I will always have my own opinion but hearing what others have to say really helps shape my own views.  I know many will not agree with what I say as I don#%92t agree with what others have to say but I will always be open to listen and decide on my own what to believe.

Thank you Gina. I think you broke it down nicely. Ruffian mentioned Boston Terriers. It should be noted that one of the biggest reasons why Boston's are getting C-Sectioned is because of uterine inertia. They tire quickly during whelping and breeders don't want to chance losing the litter. I've spoken to many breeders who aren't sure if their Bostons can free whelp because they're not willing to take the chance.

I quess I should respond because I now have owned 3 bulldogs.
My new puppy was free-whelped by accident. The breeder had not checked on the mother for an hour and she had already given birth to 2 healthy dogs.  The first was a big male and then my puppy.  She commented on how healthy these 2 puppies were (very strong) compared the rest of the litter that were delivered by C-section an hour later or so.  
 
My first bully just died at age 9.5. Her father died at 14. She came from a litter of 7 healthy siblings.  She was pretty healthy and trim except for yeast in her ears or tail.  It was an ongoing battle her whole life.  I think it was a compromised immune system by too many vaccines.  She died of a tumor of the heart.  Bulldogs are not know for heart problems so why my dog?  The life span is only 8-10,,why?  I think its up to 15 in the UK.  Is it the vaccines?  Was it the water?  She had some arthiitis in her spine in the end, but none in the hips or legs that we could see..
 
When I was a vet-tech I saw so many suffering bullies from allergies.  And stupid owners who kept the dog fat.   But the vets I worked for had no clue to advise these people on better food and admonish them for obesity.
 
This time, I was determined to get a puppy from a breeder with longer lifespan, I was even willing to go the UK to get my next dog there.  I did find a breeder in NJ, the National Champion with SnowWhite.  SnowWhite was from Australia , the Elroston line.  The Randalls took the bulldogs out for 3 mile hikes everyday even in the heat in AUS..  They built stamia into the breed.  This breeders dogs live to 12 or more.  
 
Now that I know of Dr. Dodds vaccine protocal, hopefully my dog will be healthier and live longer.  Unless you've had a bulldog, you won't understand how wonderful they are.  Once bitten, you will always have one.  Is it right to breed them?  Only reputable breeders should do it.
 
Our rescue bulldog (7) breaths good and is healthy except for bad teeth.  The vet wont put him under to do a dental cause he is afraid he'll die from anathesia.  He says bulldogs just don't start breathing on thier own after they pull the tube out.
 
On the other hand, I have a completely healthy mutt I am looking forward to making it to 13 at least I pray.

rwbeagles, there is new information out there on how dogs were evolved.  What I am stating is what I have read from new findings from biologists. 

If you read the book Dogs by Raymond Coppinger it will explain how dog breeds evolved and will make more sense.  I cannot explain everything in one post.   

Anyhow, I'm not turning this into a debate.  I was just making my comments on the orginal title...it asked if we thought breeding Bulldogs was ethical...and I said no and gave my reasons.[]

Everyone has their own ideas, I am just discussing mine. 
 
Just to add, I am not trying to offend anyone.  I just blurt out what I think and feel...some may take me the wrong way and I do apologize.[]  I am enjoying this board so far...there are some great members on board.