Breeding bulldogs? Ethical?

ORIGINAL: rwbeagles

 Lunvtzus, your breed has been DRASTICALLY altered from what is "natural" (natural being the Dingo type pariah archetype) just as much as the Bulldog.
 

 
Yes, but at least they can mate naturally and don't always have to be delivered by c-section. They aren't a breed that vets will warn you that you should get health insurance for them ahead of time. They can go more than a block without overheating, they don't all have the genetic defect of dwarfism, etc.
 
That's why I said it's a shady gray area of ethics. All breeds have been altered, but I think the English Bulldog is probably the most extreme. It isn't a question of "exterminating" the breed or anything like that, just breeding them to a healthier standard.

Just to clarifying, if humans select ANY  traits for a dog, evolution and natural selection are out the window. Natural selection is how nature 'picks' the best "forms" of animals to survive and breed (passing on genes is 'the big one'). If man selects for an form, function, or other trait, natural selection no long has a part in the process. Darwin refered to this as "sport breeding." Sometimes, we humans even select traits that would lead to the demise of a species... mutations that don't lead to the ultimate goal of passing on the genes do not continue. In this light, many, many dog breeds would quickly go extinct if left to their own devices.
 
On the EB, I can see both sides of the fence. I do believe that a dog should be able to reproduce naturally as a baseline for genetic health. However, just because EB's cannot currently do so, does not mean that they cannot in the future. I do think that breeders (of EB's) need to take a good, hard look (and I'm sure many do) at their dogs. If it can't reproduce on it's own, should it be allowed to breed? If left up to nature, the answer is simple... left to humans, it's not so black and white. At this point, all I'm going to say is that I think, if the EB breed is to survive, health and function need to be the most important thing. Sure, physical appearance might be sacraficed, but, as we all know, 'looks' should be our last goal with anything... because, without health, appearance means little.
 

Good post pumaward!

ORIGINAL: Xebby

Each person will fight to the end of the earth for their breed choice.  Yes there are many out there who are in it for the money but there are also those few who do it because that is what they truly believe in.  If we love this breed so much why can't we put more effort into breeding dogs who can once again birth on their own?

Xebby, I think you've hit on something, here. I think we need to keep it all in perspective. If a group of people love a breed and are devoted to it, then what right do any of us not involved with that breed have to say it's gone too far and we should let the breed die out? Gina is very right that it puts us on a slippery slope. I wouldn't want a dog that might have breathing troubles because that's not what I like in dogs. Does that give me the right to condemn breeds that do suffer breathing troubles? Nope. I wouldn't want a breed that drools copiously because I don't like the stuff all over me. Does that give me the right to tell people they shouldn't breed drooly dogs? Nope. I know it's hard to draw comparisons between something that is potentially very unhealthy for a dog and something that is a minor annoyance, but I draw this comparison thinking of the folks that love the breed for their own reasons.

I like breeds that look like dingoes, but that's my personal choice. I have learnt from the problems my corgi had with her back that breed specific health problems are something I should always be aware of and imagine what it's going to be like should it happen. I decided that I never want another corgi because I was so distraught when Penny had an agonising episode relating to a degenerate disk in her spine. That is a personal choice for personal reasons. I still love the breed, I just don't want to put myself in a position where I might see my dog in terrible pain again. Other corgi enthusiasts can handle that, though. They think the advantages of the breed outweigh those horrible moments of distress. Who am I to say I'm right and they're wrong? It's not my place to force my very emotional decision on them. Having owned a corgi, I can totally understand why they can handle it. My dog is a happy girl, despite her back problem. I'm sure a lot of bulldogs are happy dogs despite their health problems as well.
So I think this is a personal decision every dog owner needs to make. If you don't like seeing dogs labour for breath, then leave them to people who love them enough to learn to cope with the problems they might have. I'd be pretty devastated if corgis were suddenly abandoned because their backs are too long, even though I never intend to have another. I can still get corgi crosses. [] I think EBs are just a more obvious example. Their health problems don't diminish their quality of life to the point where they'd be better off not having one at all. As long as there are people out there that are happy to care for them, health problems and all, then how can we say to those people that they're being cruel by loving their breed?

Incidentally, I have mixed feelings about keeping breeds true to type when they could be improved upon to diminish health problems. I'm not sure where I stand on it all. On the one hand, I think it's great to see enthusiasts improving the health of a breed. But on the other hand, when do you say they've improved it so much that it's no longer the original breed? Aussie bulldogs are their own breed. We now have all types of bulldog here. Would I be happy if everyone went for the Aussie type with minimal health problems, supporting bulldog lovers who have done something positive for the breed? I'd be happy, but what about the originals? If people go for the healthy type, the less healthy type might vanish over time, and that's foundation stock gone. I've thought about this a lot lately, and I think I will just have to sit back and let breed enthusiasts take care of their breed. If they love the foundation stock enough, they'll make sure it sticks around, but if they decide the foundation stock has served it's purpose and they now have better foundation stock, then I guess the original breed will die a natural death. Natural deaths are nothing to be frightened about or fight, I think.

I really doubt that the Bulldog will ever just die out, as long as we have technology that is.  I do know that all breeds are ever evolving al will change over time, the breeds that are bred for form and function rather than just beauty will change less I believe.  All standards are open for interretation, and most breeds vary from country to country and breeder to breeder.  It would be nice if they went back and bred the Bulldog to the original standard, but that is doubtful. 

I personally don't think they should let the breed die out. I love my English Bulldog. The fact that they are hard and exspensive to breed has kept many (not all but many)  unethical breeders away. That is why they are so rare, and you don't see them in shelters, and by the way American Bulldogs are not close to the original. They are too tall and the bull would have catapulted them across the arena. If it wasn't for human intervention then these dogs would still be fierce. Now they are so friendly they are patient and tolerant with children. I absoulutely love this breed. Yes, you have to be selective when you buy one, but you have to be that way with any breed of dog you buy if you choose to get one from a breeder. It is obvious that to anyone who has never owned one not to understand why to keep the breed going, but those of us who do own one know exactly why. I know I would never breed, but I am very thankful to those who do it the right way, because without them no one would get to know and love this wonderful breed. Would it be fair to say, just because I've  never owned "so and so breed" and the few that I've seen have been sickly that they should get rid of the breed all together. Not all English Bulldogs are so sickly. It is not fair to say an entire breed should be eliminated just because "you" ( who probably doesn't own or has never known one) are putting all of them in a stereotype that you believe to be correct. It's that kind of thinking that has also given Pitt's their bad name. Not all are the same.

you shouldnt breed dogs! it is very bad there are plenty of them on streets and in pounds! spay or neuter your dog or cat the more dogs and cats spayed and nueterd the better

how do i post pics

you shouldnt breed dogs!

Milliecow - I'm sorry but I completely disagree with this statement.  While I do agree that it's important to give unwanted dogs loving forever homes, there are some VERY valid reasons for ethical, intelligent breeding of purebred dogs.  Working dogs, for example - someone with a massive sheep farm would be hard pressed to supply their needs for herding dogs exclusively from shelters.  Even if they were to find a purebred BC (or any other herding breed) there would be no guarantee that the dog would be well-bred enough, from good working stock, to do the job needed. 

I do disagree with breeding "for the hell of it", but completely support breeding for the betterment of the breed.
 
Edited to add: I didn't want to imply that working dogs are the only reason for purebreds.  There are many people, such as myself, who have good, valid reasons for owning a purebred pet dog.

Kate

Seconding Kate.

Responsible breeders health test, keep track of conformation, health and behavior of offspring, act as mentor to dog owners, socialize their pups to act as pets and not livestock from an early age, and preserve the integrity of different breeds.

Getting a dog at a shelter is another ball of wax than getting a pup from a breeder that you have thoroughly researched and discussed this decision with. It makes sense, even if a person is uninterested in showing or working with the dog, to want an expert in your corner, making sure the pups are extremely healthy, exposing them to strange surfaces, sights and noises, inviting all different kinds of people over, getting them started on housetraining, and choosing which one out of the litter will work best in your home.

What's so wrong about being thoughtful about the existence of a dog in your life? Or wanting to make dogs in a thoughtful way?

I rather think that if everyone got their dogs from responsible breeders, the numbers of dogs in shelters would drop dramatically. But that's an argument for another thread, one not about the ethics of breeding bulldogs.

JensLilTi, that was pretty much the idea that I was trying to communicate with limited success. People who have never owned a bulldog don't have the right to decide what it's future should be. As long as there are people out there that love the breed enough to keep breeding it despite health problems, then I think that's testament enough to its value to mankind and its suitability as a companion animal. I'm pretty confident to trust bulldog owners to make their own judgements about how happy the dogs are.