do dogs have a sense of self?

I believe the test sense of self the science community uses, to determine self awareness...is the mirror test. Can the creature look into a mirror...and know that it is "me" and not 'another animal like myself to play with, growl at, run from, etc'. No dog I've ever owned has ever come to understand about reflections....
 
Dunno if that's what you mean by sense of self?

Interesting question. I would say no.

The mirror test is a good one, Gina. It tests understanding of a pretty sophisiticated concept--that the animal understands that it is separate from everything it perceives. Kids don't really get this until they are like two years old, right? (Terrible twos?)

I don't think dogs act like they understand that they have an inside (sense of self) and that this inside is different from their outside (the world they perceive). This is why I like dogs. They teach me a lot about how I think too much about my own sense of self.

this was most likely a complete coincidence, but I was pet sitting a little pup once, and he wandered in front of a mirror. he looked at his reflection and wagged his tail, and immediately as it started wagging he looked around back at his own tail. it was almost eerie (but also very cute!)

Yep, that's the one I'm talking about. It's almost odd to me that they don't have a sense of self because they have memories, likes and dislikes, they can learn from past experiences, etc. ...

I think a sense of self would hinder dogs as a species because it's hard...having a sense of self...to not also have vanity and ego and not be self CONCIOUS. Since so much of dogs social life is based on order and rank I think that could really lead to problems?
 
Pure supposition of course hehe...

I think this is the same as a theory of mind, no? Theory of mind is what's supposed to set us apart from the animals. Somewhere between the age 3 and 5, human kids will develop a theory of mind. In other words, they can comprehend that other people don't neccessarily see what they see and know what they know. Before they make this giant leap, they cannot understand that what they see is not what everyone else sees. For example, nodding when answering a question posed to them over the phone. They don't understand that the person on the other end can't see them nodding their head. So, to have a sense of self, you need to realise that there's you and then there's everyone else who might see things differently to you.

I know that chimps have a theory of mind, and it's recently been discovered that pinon jays and possibly ravens have a theory of mind. Dogs are pretty close, though. One step down from a theory of mind is observational learning, in which individuals can learn something by watching another of the same species doing it. For example, an adult octopus can learn how to open a jar by watching another adult do it. It's not the same as a baby animal learning what to eat through trial and error, or a young hunter learning how to hunt by playing with a prey item brought home by mum. Observational learning, I expect, is probably more common than we think. I did a literature review on it a few years ago and at that stage it had only been documented in pigs, chimps, ravens, elephants and octopus, but I know for a fact dogs can learn something by watching another dog do it. []

ORIGINAL: mondayblues

It's almost odd to me that they don't have a sense of self because they have memories, likes and dislikes, they can learn from past experiences, etc. ...

 
I don't know if a sense of self/theory of mind is necessary for memories, likes and dislikes etc. - there are many animals (and some invertebrates) who also appear to have them too.
 
Interestingly, another test of theory of mind is gaze/attention following, which dogs (but not wolves) are able to do proficiently.

I don't think the "mirror" test is appropriate for dogs-- they rely on smell, not sight. If it looks like a dog but smells like glass and silver, they believe their nose. Same with most of these tests humans devised-- they rely on vision, which just isn't important to dogs.
I think the real question is, can dogs LIE? If a creature can deliberately lie, I believe that indicates a "sense of self". I've seen a dog quietly hide a bone under a paw. Lying about possession of a bone to the alpha dog? who knows.
I've also seen Baxter "pretend" to watch-dog bark at something outside so the alpha bitch will get off the bed he wanted to lie in. He barks, she leaps up to investigate, Baxter quickly lies down on the bed. Done it too many times for it to be a coincidence.

I have Border collies.  It's difficult to believe they are not the mental equivalents of my five year old sometimes.  There are some differences, however.  I can tell my five year old contrastive statements like "Yesterday we went to Grammies but tomorrow we will stay home" and he can easily understand the layers of concepts contained in this statement (time, positional difference, spatial awareness, self mapping).

I think dogs have a social sense which doubles as a primitive sense of self.  I suspect they percieve themselves as a cog in a system - ie, they percieve the system as "centered" on themselves.  Time, space, actions all revolve around themselves. 

I've seen many dogs "pass" the mirror test - but what often happens is not that they realize "that dog is me", but "What's in there is another part of my system."  I've seen a dog "pretend" to look away from a dog with a toy, but watch in the mirror instead, gradually positioning herself in "real life" closer to the "real toy" but still looking away.  Or, more simply, if a dog sees me pick up a toy in the mirror he'll turn right around and look at me.

Dogs expend a lot of energy making adjustments to the system.  Most dogs are born with a strong sense of efficacy (we'd call it empowerment) - that it is possible to do something to change the system to their satisfaction.  This is why training is possible - dogs like to figure out rules and then operate within them, until things are "unbalanced" again.

Armchair sociologists who spend a lot of time trying to draw lines between animals and us, get nervous about apparent altruism in dogs (and other animals).  These anecdotes don't bother me. I think this primitive sense of self allows for a likewise primitive ethos where things very similiar to our supposedly exclusive emotions exist.  Love, loyalty, concern, joy - not at the level we experience, I don't think, but I think they are there in the sense we understand and not just reactions in a Pavlovian sense.

Now here's my really radical view. [] I think that animals can grow in their mental ability through interactions with a kind, just, and insightful human.  This takes our responsibiltiy as animal lovers to a whole new level.

I read in a book once that a person awakens an animal's soul.  It wasn't an arrogant statement, it was a reminder that these psyches are as fragile (and as malleable) as those of very young children - a sobering thought - and an exciting one!

I really like this thread.

Absolutely...and that same 5 year old child can be mortally wounded by another child saying how ugly their hair looks or that they talk funny. Self aware...usually leads to judging and comparing yourself against others, comments in that vein etc.
 
I think dogs got a pretty good deal LMAO!

Dogs also live in the moment almost exclusively.  That's a marvelous mindset if you've ever thought about it.  Nothing will bug you much if you don't compare it to something else that happened to you, or your mom, or your kid - if you just can react without mulling it over, then get on with life - we'd put all the GI doctors out of business, probably!

The best dog trainers I know are also like that themselves, by the way.  They are the HAPPIEST people, too.  I'm so envious - but then there I go again, not thinking like a dog! []

A state of complete egolessness and living in the present moment is what several religions refer to as "enlightenment."
 
 

Now here's my really radical view. I think that animals can grow in their mental ability through interactions with a kind, just, and insightful human. This takes our responsibiltiy as animal lovers to a whole new level.

 
I agree with that. At the very least I think it's wise to make a kind of Pascal's wager and bet that it is true when caring for animals.
 
I'm not sure that the mirror test is too reliable to evaluate a sense of self... it seems to me it really just shows an ability to recognize the "technology" of mirrors.
 
The whole concept of self-awareness/self-consciousness/sense of self is pretty controversial even when you just apply it to human beings. Selfhood as we usually think of it is strongly influenced by ideas from Western philosophy and psychology that are by no means universal.
 
I think anytime an animal shows concern for things beyond basic survival we can question what degree of self-consciousness it has, but the answers are still largely a mystery.