do dogs have a sense of self?

I don't think the "mirror" test is appropriate for dogs-- they rely on smell, not sight.

Not all dogs mind you.  Besides, if you were a Saluki running down a gazelle for thousands of yards, what good would smell do you?  Sighthounds or Gazehounds, are among the oldest breeds and do not rely heavily upon smell as a general rule.  There are exceptions with the Pharaoh Hound, Ibizan Hound, Cirneco dell Etna and a few others, but most rely almost exclusively on sight. 

Sorry to hijack

As far as a sense of self:  I think to a certain degree dogs can have a sense of self, if you mean a sense of where they belong, ie their place, in the world.  I have seen deceit in dogs, use of tools, non-linear thinking, cooperation, and learning skills that would rival our own depending upon the situation.  But I do not think that they really have a sense of self in any respect like our own.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
 I've seen a dog quietly hide a bone under a paw. Lying about possession of a bone to the alpha dog? who knows.
I've also seen Baxter "pretend" to watch-dog bark at something outside so the alpha bitch will get off the bed he wanted to lie in. He barks, she leaps up to investigate, Baxter quickly lies down on the bed. Done it too many times for it to be a coincidence.

It's always a shady thing, animal psychology. The dog might be hiding the bone, but does he fully appreciate what he's doing? He can't see the bone when he hides it with his paw, either. His sense of touch might tell him it is still there, but maybe he understands that to feel something you have to touch it. I've seen dogs hide bones not using their body parts, which I'm sure most dog owners have seen. They get very nervous when someone goes near the hiding spot and will chase away the curious creature. Do they do this out of paranoia, or because they think the other animal knows where the bone is because they know where it is?

As for the pretend watch-dog bark, I've seen that exact same behaviour in my corgi. Dogs are very superstitious, though. If something works under certain circumstances once, then they assume it will always work in the same circumstances. Baxter might have accidentally got that response one day when he did a real watchdog bark and made the connection that he only need bark at the window and the bed is his. It's just like magic. I'm not dismissing the idea that dogs have a sense of self, but it's possible these things that look very cunning and deceitful to us are a string of superstitions to a dog.

Altruism in the true sense doesn't occur in the animal world. There's always got to be something in it for the individual. Selfish genes always get fixed quickly in a population because selfish individuals are fitter than altruistic individuals. I think when dogs think of things beyond basic survival, it's generally to do with how they can make life better for them. Obeying commands gets them treats and makes their pack leader happy. This is a good thing for a dog. Happy pack leader means the dog is in favour and good things will happen to him such as treats, pats, games or other things that he especially likes.

It's always a shady thing, animal psychology. The dog might be hiding the bone, but does he fully appreciate what he's doing? He can't see the bone when he hides it with his paw, either. His sense of touch might tell him it is still there, but maybe he understands that to feel something you have to touch it. I've seen dogs hide bones not using their body parts, which I'm sure most dog owners have seen. They get very nervous when someone goes near the hiding spot and will chase away the curious creature. Do they do this out of paranoia, or because they think the other animal knows where the bone is because they know where it is?

 
Okay then, what about the dog who pretends to be chewing on a bone, but is really chewing on a (forbidden) sock?  I have a dog that sets up an elaborate display with a toy/bone, positioned so that it looks authentic.  When you go in for a closer inspection, he is hiding a sock under the toy and chewing on it!   He does this semi-regularly and choses the decoy toy based on the size of the stolen item. 
 
Lie #2 - He spots another dog approaching and knows that the only way I will stop is if he is going potty.  Even though he is beyond empty - he starts to sniff whatever random thing is there - all the while, keeping his eyes focused on the approaching dog.  I start to walk away (cause I can see what he's doing), he pretends to pee...  I stop, he gets to greet doggie!   He's not even a good actor, when he pretend sniffs - he's not even inhaling, when he pretend pees - nothing at all, not even a drop.

Okay then, what about the dog who pretends to be chewing on a bone, but is really chewing on a (forbidden) sock? I have a dog that sets up an elaborate display with a toy/bone, positioned so that it looks authentic. When you go in for a closer inspection, he is hiding a sock under the toy and chewing on it! He does this semi-regularly and choses the decoy toy based on the size of the stolen item.

 
[sm=lol.gif] Russell does that too.

I think they do have a sense of self and it is instinctual. They are pack animals and need to know where the fit in. Cats also have a sense of self. They know that everyone is there to serve them.
 
Humans are the only creature that can contemplate non-self.
 

Okay I have seen one of our furry kids be jeoulous, hold grudges, have favorites, get embarrased, and think about how things have been in the past.  These are all characteristics of "self".
 
I believe they do and I only wish we all had such a centered "self".
 
 

ORIGINAL: labcrab

It's always a shady thing, animal psychology. The dog might be hiding the bone, but does he fully appreciate what he's doing? He can't see the bone when he hides it with his paw, either. His sense of touch might tell him it is still there, but maybe he understands that to feel something you have to touch it. I've seen dogs hide bones not using their body parts, which I'm sure most dog owners have seen. They get very nervous when someone goes near the hiding spot and will chase away the curious creature. Do they do this out of paranoia, or because they think the other animal knows where the bone is because they know where it is?

Okay then, what about the dog who pretends to be chewing on a bone, but is really chewing on a (forbidden) sock?  I have a dog that sets up an elaborate display with a toy/bone, positioned so that it looks authentic.  When you go in for a closer inspection, he is hiding a sock under the toy and chewing on it!   He does this semi-regularly and choses the decoy toy based on the size of the stolen item. 

Lie #2 - He spots another dog approaching and knows that the only way I will stop is if he is going potty.  Even though he is beyond empty - he starts to sniff whatever random thing is there - all the while, keeping his eyes focused on the approaching dog.  I start to walk away (cause I can see what he's doing), he pretends to pee...  I stop, he gets to greet doggie!   He's not even a good actor, when he pretend sniffs - he's not even inhaling, when he pretend pees - nothing at all, not even a drop.

We can't know if he's intentionally lying or not, but that could be explained by superstition again. Dog chews on bone while sitting on dirty laundry, dog chews on sock underneath bone, dog does not get roused on, but is rewarded by being allowed to chew on sock, so dog assumes socks may be chewed if they are underneath a bone. A lot of things look like deliberate deception, but might not be. In case 2, the dog learns from experience that he gets to stop when he pees. He sees something he wants to stop for that isn't peeing, so he goes through the motions of peeing to get you to stop. He's learnt that real peeing equals stop and it's not a huge leap to go from there to pretend peeing equals stop, especially if it worked once. Dogs will try things out to see if it gets the response they're after. They don't necessarily understand why it works.

Okay I have seen one of our furry kids be jeoulous, hold grudges, have favorites, get embarrased, and think about how things have been in the past.  These are all characteristics of "self".

Depends on how you define it. None of those things prove that a dog understands that the world exists in a different way inside someone else's head. Emotions, preferences, learning rules.... none of these things require a theory of mind to exist. That's not to say dogs certainly don't have a theory of mind, just that it's not convincing evidence. It's a hard thing to test in animals.

I do think that dogs have a sense of self, but it is a sense of the canine self, and so we don't understand it)

And, I like this thread, too!

Okay I have seen one of our furry kids be jeoulous, hold grudges, have favorites, get embarrased, and think about how things have been in the past.  These are all characteristics of "self".

This is all actually evidence of your sense of self--this is theory of mind at work. You, human, looks at dog and assumes the looks on your dog's face mean the same things they would mean if they were on your face. This does not seem silly at all at first--it's empathy, it helps us make complex emotional decisions.

But I have a friend who owns a bassett hound, and yesterday he was telling me how everybody is always telling his dog to "cheer up" and wondering if he's sad. He's not sad, he has a droopy face. He is obviously happy, his eyes are bright, his tail wags, he scampers. It's silly the way people always assume that Monster's long face is equal to their long face.

Similarly, grudges and jealousy, for exampe, require cognitive skills that dogs don't have, thank god. They live in the moment and want stuff--they are simpler than we are, and that's why I like them. I like living with dogs because they don't hold grudges or get embarassed. It's not enlightenment (dogs know more about desire than I think humans do), but it's a simplicity that I admire.

ORIGINAL corvus:
We can't know if he's intentionally lying or not, but that could be explained by superstition again. Dog chews on bone while sitting on dirty laundry, dog chews on sock underneath bone, dog does not get roused on, but is rewarded by being allowed to chew on sock, so dog assumes socks may be chewed if they are underneath a bone. A lot of things look like deliberate deception, but might not be.

 
Yes, except that's not the way this behavior evolved.  There simply was no "accidental" sock+toy event that allowed him to make such an assumption.  I also used a sock as one example.  The deception occurs when he has deliberately stolen a high value item that is guaranteed to be taken away.  This happens rarely as we run a very tight ship!!   When the deception is discovered, he is NOT rewarded - so he can't possibly think that it's "okay" to do this.  I believe he's trying to delay the expected outcome - confiscation of the item.  Is this not deliberate?
 

ORIGINAL corvus
In case 2, the dog learns from experience that he gets to stop when he pees. He sees something he wants to stop for that isn't peeing, so he goes through the motions of peeing to get you to stop. He's learnt that real peeing equals stop and it's not a huge leap to go from there to pretend peeing equals stop, especially if it worked once. Dogs will try things out to see if it gets the response they're after. They don't necessarily understand why it works.

 
Yes, but again - isn't pretend peeing to get what he wants a *deliberate* deception?   
 
I tend to agree with Anne's very succinct answer!  Their sense of self is anchored on their self - not our self.   Applying a human definition to what their sense of self should be seems misguided, no?

I believe that all animals have consciousness and a "sense of self", but in varying degrees. Of course I'm not one of those people who believe that humans are special somehow. Humans are just animals to me like everything else that evolved on this planet, so to me man is an animal with a highly developed consciousness and sense of self along with dolphins and a variety of other animals whereas the level of consciousness a starfish has might be on a level so far below ours as to be completely negligible. Dogs are probably somewhere in the middle.

Christina

this is a very fascinating topic. when Timber was a puppy he would bark at himself in the mirror. I thought maybe if he was standing next to me seeing me in the mirror too he might make the association but I don't think so. one day he was watching television and there was a little boy riding a bike that looked just like my nephew and Timber went up to the tv and wagged his tail. does this mean he thought that little boy was my nephew? to me it looks like he recognized a little boy and associated him with the memory of playing with my nephew. another time he was licking at stitches he had after surgery and I told him to stop. he went into the bedroom where I couldn't see him but I heard him and when I yelled from the other room to stop he came out looking rather sheepish. I'm sure he wondered how I knew he was still licking when I couldn't see him.

Similarly, grudges and jealousy, for exampe, require cognitive skills that dogs don't have, thank god.

 
i dont think i agree with this. yesterday i was trying to look at a spot on my dogs foot, the only time he has ever bit anyone, and he will only do it to me, is when i have to hold him down and cut his nails, so normally when i know im going to do this he wears a muzzle. previously he had only ever bitten the one time because after that we got the muzzle. well anyway last night he had something stuck on his foot and i wanted to see it so i tried to restrain him and he bit my hand. naturally i yelled in pain and my dog scampered under a table out of fear i would assume. i had sat down on the couch and had my head laying on the arm and he came up and layed his head right on top of mine and kept sighing until i pet him.
 
now  im pretty sure that my dog knew what he did, felt bad/guilty, and that was his way of apologizing. obviously he sensed "he" did something wrong, so wouldnt that be him sensing himself?

He behaved how you would behave if you did something wrong, but does that prove that he knows he did something wrong?

I think it's all from a human perspective and some anthropromorphizing will happen. We use the word fearful to describe a number of bodily clues from a dog. Is that the word the dog is using? Is that how he feels? How do we know? If we physically control a dog, is it fearful? How do we know?
 
We have human words and concepts attached to those behaviors.
 
Ah, the slippery slope of semantics.