Out-of-control Kid

I have a niece who is a single parent at age 24 of a 4 year old and a 2 year old.
She works full-time and is a terrible housekeeper. I can't bear to go into her apartment as it freaks me out! And she cleans condos for a living.
Her kids can be terrors, but I adore them. I have them an hour and I want to take a nap and become an alcholic.
BUT - these 2 kids listen to their mom....they always always wash their hands after using the toilet and both kids are 100% potty trained cause their mom took the time to work with them.
These kids are great around animals too - they are my kid testers for foster cats, they are as gentle as can be. Dougie (4 year old boy) loves brushing Auntie Mary's special kitties and he giggles like mad when he gets headbutted. Dougie tells Molly to sit and she sits.
People would look at my niece and whisper about her being a young single mom, living in a hovel of an apartment, having a new BF every few months (thank god she had her tubes tied), having a sewer mouth - but she puts time into her kids and explains to them the consequences on various things...like bothering someone's pets without asking.
I've never seen these kids approach any animal unless they have been told they can - by the pet's owner.
All it takes is time from parents, when the kids is young, to set some boundaries. I bet the same woman with the kid in this post spends more time on her cell phone than she does talkign to her child.

I would definatly place the blame on the mother. We have a few two and three year olds come over and if they are not good with Maggie their mom's WILL put them in their place. Maggie loves them and will follow them around.
Then we have a five year old who came over once and ran and sceamed. Maggie followed. I told her not to run and scream because Maggie was still young and would chase her. A few minutes later the girl comes to the mom crying "Maggie jumped up on me!" So I asked her what she was doing. "Running and screaming" I was like 'well DUH!' But then the Mom made a big fuss about it and had her breath into a bag and stuff. That is what we call encouraging the bahavior. I din't even think Maggie knocked her down, but a dew claw might have caught her leg.
I think you did right, although I probably would have chewed the mom out for letting the kid do that.

That's nice. Pop the kid's arm out of the socket. Get your butt sued off. Look like a horrible person in front of everyone... Yeah. That's not exactly the right way to go.

 
Or keep saying "Hey, no don't do that".....let the kid get his face ripped off by a terrified dog....that's a much better way to go.  The kid got bit (nipped this time)...clearly more steps should have been taken by all parties involved.
 
I have picked my kids up by the arm many times and havn't seen one pop off yet. 
 
As far as not touching someone else's kid....the child was in danger...it is appropriate to do what is neccessary to end the situation.
 
For instance, a child is heading out into the street...you scream "no!" and he keeps going....should you let the kid get run over or do you go and grab him...
 
I suppose we let him get run over....I wouldn't want to get sued or accused of kid knapping.....
 
It would have been perfectly appropriate to pick this kid up and take her back to her mother. 

I personally would have picked that girl up (or taken her by the hand) and brought her to her mother and told themother 'My dog can bite, you should keep an eye on your girl'
 
She could have taken it any way she wanted to, I wouldnt have cared either way.
 
Ive had my ex DH's nephew come up to my mom two ex fosters and start pulling and messing with them and I have pushed his hand away and taken him inside, and I would not hesitate in doing it again.

There is a major difference between picking a child up...even by the arm...and "jerking her up in the air by the arm".  Sadly, I HAVE seen a child be severely injured with a dislocated shoulder when his MOTHER did that to him.

Sadly, I HAVE seen a child be severely injured with a dislocated shoulder when his MOTHER did that to him.

I have seen the aftermath of a child severly disfigured by a dog that the kid had frightened. If only it had been a dislocated shoulder. 
 
I wasn't implying that the dog owner be abusive to the child....just much more proactive in removing the child from a dangerous situation.

I'm really sorry for your bad experience.  I agree that parents need to control their kids.  It kills me that they let the kid run up to a strange dog like that, then IF the dog bites, they label the poor dog as aggressive.  Had that experience with a 2 year old running towards my shep/rott mix with her arms flaling at the dog.  My dog crawled behind to hide, the parents were 3 feet away & gave me dirty looks but said NOTHING to the kid!  I  told tham that was dangerous to do to a strange dog.  They told me to muzzle her if she's dangerous, I told them to leash their kid & walked away!
My dog is well behaved with people, kids too, when approached in a calm manner, she sits & shakes hands.  But I bet she'd have snapped too if a kid kept poking her.  You did the right thing, have to protect your dog!  It only takes one idiot to spoil things for all of us!

First off, I agree that this parent was a horror show, and you did almost everything right. There's only one thing I feel I should add, because I think those of us who are not innately rude are sometimes so used to trying to be polite, we get ourselves in bad situations because it takes us too long to be rude when it IS called for.

Reverse the situation for a moment: What if you had a child and a dog was chasing it in an aggressive manner? Would you politely ask the dog to stop, try to leave, and keep being polite even as the dog continued to try to get to your child? Or would you say to the owner, "Get that %$** dog away from my kid, he's attacking him!! If he hurts my kids, I'll rip your %**## head off so GET THAT BEAST OUT OF HERE!!!!"?

The child was attacking your dog. The mother saw it and ignored it. Clearly politeness won't work here. I'd be wary about touching the child (since we do live in a lawsuit happy world), but I'd have no compunction about screaming at the mother and embarrassing her into fast action. "Get your kid away from my dog, NOW!!! Lady, she's hurting him!! Ger her away or my dog will BITE!!" Yelled at the top of your lungs, this will generally get prompt action from even the most lax parents.

Yes, it's embarassing and may piss a few people off. But better that then have the dog really bite someone, not just nip at them.

The parent is clearly at fault here, but when a child goes up against a dog, the kid always wins. So you need to protect your dog at all costs. Unfortunately, there are some really bad parents out there...and usually they're the first ones to sue when there's a problem. Did anyone read about the PetCo incident in NY where the parent had the four year old wandering the store without him, SAW HER petting a rottie without the owner's permission and turned his back on it? The kid then got grabbie, the dog bit, and guess who got put to sleep? I'll give you a hint -- not the crummy parent, who is now suing for a few kazillion dollars about "that vicious dog."

I hope you can get your pup out and socialized with some well behaved kids (perhaps you have a dog owning friends with some kids you can introduce your dog to). But you also want to be aware that this kind of thing isn't as rare as it may seem. You will encounter it again, you can almost bet on it. So make an active plan now to protect your pup so you're prepared for next time.

Yelling at the kid may work, but honestly, it's not the kid's fault, and yelling at the kid may convince your dog that the kid is a threat -- which is not the message you want to send. If you can easily remove your dog from the situation, that's ideal, but if the kid follows, blast the parent. Top of your lungs, make sure everyone hears it. Scream, "MY DOG IS GONNA BITE YOUR KID!!!" if you have to. At least this will get fast action.

Because you are fighting for your dog's life, just as you'd be fighting for your kid's life if an aggressive dog attacked it. The only difference is the time factor -- if a dog attacks a kid, the kid gets hurt immediately, if a kid attacks your dog and your dog defends itself, it may get PTS later after a court battle. But the end result is the same.

I know how hard it is to be really rude if it's not your natural personality. But any time someone puts your dog's life at risk, you need to act aggressively. You are your dog's only advocate, so please don't be afraid to be as rude, aggressive, mean or downright scary as need be to protect your furry friend.

I hate people who don't train their kids...but I also know I can't change them, so the best I can do is plan ahead so when I'm in the situation, I won't allow my dog to come to harm due to my own inaction, or too-slow reaction. I nearly did this once because I was too busy being polite...now I'm happily rude if boxed into a corner. As uncomfortable as it can be to to the equivalent of yelling "fire" at a crowded BBQ -- it's worth it to keep your pet safe.

I totally understand what a shock this was to you, and I know you did your best to keep your baby safe. But now that it has happened and you know it could again, think about what you'll do next time to get the kid away before there's an incident. Unfortunately, bad parents just force dog owners to work harder...

Jan

There is a line with dogs, when it comes to fearful things, and once they cross that line, they are no longer learning anything useful, they are just frightened and further exposure will do them more harm then good.  With Sally, I can tell when we are reaching that point, and though it rarely happens anymore, if I see it coming, I remove her from the situation.  Why set her up to fail?

I'm so sorry you and your pup had to go through that.  When I'd only had Sally a few months I had a four year old in Petsmart fly up to Sally and throw her arms around her-it happened SO fast.  Thank God, Sally just licked her.  I showed her and her mother the scar on my face from when I hugged a dog as a child and got 21 stitches for my trouble.  I have no idea if the kid got it but hopefully the mother paid attention.

I work part time at a public riding stable, and I can tell you that I physically grab kids routinely.  I've had kids run directly up behind horses, try to throw their arms around a horse's legs, and recently had an out of control 2 year old go flying up to a tied mare's flank area, trying to grab her hind legs and belly.  I grabbed him by the back of the shirt, picked him up (not by the back of his shirt, mind you) and deposited him in front of his mother. 

Why?  Because whether the parents like it or not, it is my job to make sure their kids do not get flattened by a horse.  If the parents are not going to prevent this from happening, either through ignorance or poor parenting, I am going to intervene, and if that means pulling, grabbing, picking up, etc, so be it.  Just because they stand by while their child does things that could easily result in facial reconstrucive surgery (no such thing as a horse that doesn't kick), doesn't mean that I will.  In 9 years I haven't had one complaint, only indifferent or grateful parents.

ORIGINAL: JessiesGirl

First off, I agree that this parent was a horror show, and you did almost everything right. There's only one thing I feel I should add, because I think those of us who are not innately rude are sometimes so used to trying to be polite, we get ourselves in bad situations because it takes us too long to be rude when it IS called for.

You are right. I was trying to be nice. I don't deal with out-of-control children often enough to really know what to do in the situation, and the whole thing happened pretty fast. I didn't have enough time to fully think.

I admit that I am too nice sometimes. >X.x;<

I'm sorry your dog got scared...that sucks. My son is 3 and he is always in a hand hold or under voice command lmao. He likes dogs but never to the point where he'd like to touch one he doesn't know....but he feels that way about people, too...."don't touch me...I don't know you!"...[]
 
I'd let you borrow my 2 if you were closer! I don't think you did anything wrong...my dogs are almost always in crates or expens in large party situations for that reason....their own safety.

Gypsy is always rock solid with kids, but there are many, many dogs who are not. It is nutso to think every dog loves kids--most are not thrilled by the herky-jerky movements of toddlers.  For many dogs, this sets off prey drive.  A dog who was frightened a few moments before suddenly thinks that this looks like something to CHASE. Then who gets the blame?  The poor dog, of course.

My DSs were taught at an early age that it's not ok to run up to doggies.  Now that they are teenagers, they are very, very good about asking before they pet.

Some people believe that ALL animals are safe around kids.  I remember hearing about parents putting their kids up UNDER police horse to pet the nice horsies, because they "are trained not to kick"!

I always tell people that there are three things I don't get behind: semis, stallions and bulls.  None of them can see you when you are behind them and all of them can kill you.  People should remember that a dog CAN kill a small child.  It (unfortunately) happens all too often.[]

I'm testament to the sad fact that some kids just can't be taught. My mother told me repeatedly not to pat strange dogs, but I had a great big gordon setter/lab cross at home that let me do anything to her and I could never quite believe that a dog might not be as happy about me as my Katie pal was. When I was a toddler I got bitten by a dog our regular babysitter owned because he didn't like little kids and even though I'd been told by my parents and the dogs owners not to try to pat him because he'd bite me, I apparently couldn't resist and did it anyway. I was the kind of kid that cried if you said a stern word to me, but animals just begged to be touched.

Having said that, my mother would never have let me approach a dog when I was a kid without her and the owner supervising. I had to sneak off and pat them when no one was looking. The mother's attitude was a real worry. Honestly, some people shouldn't be responsible for another living being period, regardless of the species.

You may have answered this already, but has Shippo been comfortable with children before? My dog (who I forgot to mention is also a corgi) was quite nervous around kids after that incident where she got poked in the eye when no one was watching, but she soon got over it with lots of positive experiences after that. And everyone was more careful with their kids around her. Hopefully Shippo will be similarly resilient.

I probably would have restrained the child, not the dog, and been thrown out of the barbecue for telling the woman, "Excuse me, that's the second time I've told her, not get your little brat away from my dog once and for all before she gets bitten." 
Children should be seen and not heard, my mom used to say.  I used to think that was harsh - now I get it LOL.

ORIGINAL: corvus

You may have answered this already, but has Shippo been comfortable with children before? My dog (who I forgot to mention is also a corgi) was quite nervous around kids after that incident where she got poked in the eye when no one was watching, but she soon got over it with lots of positive experiences after that. And everyone was more careful with their kids around her. Hopefully Shippo will be similarly resilient.

Yeah, he's met several children and a lot of them knew what to do (get on their knees and get closer to his level, let him sniff their hand and all that). He was comfortable with most of them. There were also some older kids at this barbecue who he was semi-comfortable with (because they leaned over him instead of crouching down).