I shouldn't have to choose between husband and dog...

You're right  - when one person loves another they don't make ultimatums that just plain can't have a good outcome.  An ultimatum that will cause the other person to become bitter is destined to fail.  An ultimatum that makes a person choose something that will violate their own personal frame of reference of 'right and wrong' -- that too is destined to fail and backfire.

It's not fair.  It's not even rational.  It makes one of you look immature and unstable -- and it's not you.  He reacted very similarly when Oliver needed hip surgery AND at the same time he hadn't gotten a contract renewal. 

My guess is that he said you could put her down just to yank your chain and provoke you.  He knows better. 

You're worried (which speaks well of you -- your compassion is one of your best qualities) but he's an adult, and he's making his own choices, bad tho they may be.   You can't be accountable for his choices ... only your own. 

Time for a cup of chammomile my friend -- and don't forget to make it in a pretty cup!  It will do you a world of good.  (Chocolate probably wouldn't hurt either!)
 
== edited to add ==
 
We've gotta stop reading each other's minds -- I think you're right on target again.  I don't think it's 'you' -- I think it's a deeper issue.  I'm glad you are taking care of yourself -- and yes I'm glad you're lightening your load and getting the other dogs back where they belong. 
 
Sometimes real wisdom is knowing your own limitations and making sure the 'small stuff' stays small and handleable.  g'night hon -- take care.

just wondering how things have panned out... if he's cooled off, or if he is going to be stubborn and think he has to follow through with his rash decision?

i've been down a similar street, but my husband has never threatened to leave me. Our female bulldog Kaydee has an ugly side, she is dangerously female aggressive. She has never bitten a person, or attacked a dog in public, but once the dog enters her territory she is most assuredly going to let them know who rules the roost. We found this out the hard way a few years ago. My husband is Kaydee's biggest fan, but when she turned into Mr. Hyde one night (i was home alone, 8 months preggo- my grandmother's old dog picked the fight, but Kaydee almost finished it) He was on edge about keeping her. We discussed it for a LONG time, decided to give her another shot. But it was obvious once Kaydee learned her strength she was determined to stay in the alpha seat. After that, the older dog has since died of old age, we have made it a point to make sure Kaydee is the only female dog in our family.
At one point it was rough because my husband wasnt sure he could trust her. she never bit him or anyone, though she has showed strong dislike against some people - but there was usually a good reason for it - he even said we should find her a new home ASAP. it just wasnt worth the liability. I should have been a lawyer because i actually convinced him it wasnt JUST her. She was just the stronger dog, and very protective. the solution is simple. Kaydee knows that we are the ones in control, we're the real alphas, but she just wont tolerate another female dog.
Right now she and the new pup, the stray pit bull, are getting along..somewhat. Kaydee is getting better after her accident, she is walking more and more thanks to this little stray who instigates playing and wrestling matches which gets Kaydee to use her legs more and more. but the pup doesnt know about Kaydee's short fuse. I'm afraid things might start out as friendly play and end up with a huge fight and casualties, which is why we cant keep this little dog as much as we would love to. Kaydee was here first. this is her family. There is no way i would ever ship her off to someone else for a strange dog that doesnt know our rules. I know Kaydee would lay down her life to protect this family, i dont know if the pup has that kind of loyalty in her.

The other thing is i dont think i would like being given an ultimatum like that... "Me or the Dog" ... now if the dog had caused several problems and had shown an obvious dislike for him... or a strong liking for the taste of him... then yes i would expect and honour an ultimatum. but over something like this? Who does he think he is? I dont think you should let yourself be bullied so easily. This can only get worse over the years. What if you kids make a mistake? is he going to give them the same ultimatum?
In his defense, however, you married him, he's your partner, the man of the house and the decision maker, he has a strong personality which is obvious, and he believes its his right to make these decisions as he sees fit. he might be tired of all the dogs. maybe he wants to be your priority, not them.
We dont know if he has been secretly loathing these dogs or not. sounds like that may be. its hard to tell without knowing you guys personally.
Right now it boils down to whats more important. You wont be a student much longer, you can certainly live without him, but is that what you want? because of a dog?
everyone that knows me knows that i love my dogs, but if it ever came down to them or my family, then i'm choosing my family without hesitation.
Now, for Snicker's sake, maybe she needs a home where she is the only dog, just like Kaydee. some dogs cant handle being second, or even the possibility of being second. i've seen dogs bite their owner's boyfriends because he got too close.
I would tell him that there has to be more than a week to decide this. He can stay gone for that length of time if he wants, or he can come home and help you decide on the best course of action.

I'm sorry you're going through this too. i've seen it happen before with my family members. it worked itself out in the end and everyone was happy, but no one likes to be forced to make a decision, but thats one of the evils of life.

also, if i'm allowed to, i would like to tell you that there's another forum that helps in relationship advice. www.therfs.com
these people have helped me sooooooo much in the past. they are open, honest, blunt, and they look at both sides of the story, not just one. you might want to toss this at them and see what they say.

should I realize that she is more dangerous then I describe? do you think he may have a point?

If she's never shown any type of aggression to him before and it's only been this time then she probably isn't a danger to him.  But, she is a danger to your other dog and possibly other pets too.  I think I understand where he's coming from in a weird sort of way.  As you said, he's not dog savvy like you are, so to him, this bite doesn't make the sense it does to you--ie, he got in the way.  And, you trying to explain it makes it seem like your making excuses for her to him--ie. sending the message that the dog is more important.  Believe me, been there, done that. 

In the back of my mind I'm thinking if she does start to get worse off him not being cued in to how to act around her might be an issue.  I know my husband would make mistakes and for example, get growled at when he hung over her to pet her, stuff like that.  And, I'd tell him why he got growled at and I'd get how I make excuses for her. 

I think she deserves another chance considering the situation.  BUT, I'd talk to him.  Maybe he is afraid of her. Or maybe he loves the other dog so much already and is afraid she'll get hurt.  It might not be rational but it still could be very real.  I know for a long time my DH thought he had to walk on eggshells around Willow and he really hated it.  He might of done the same thing to me as you got if we didn't have a strong relationship.  It might of been the "last straw". 

So, you guys need a sit down, talk about ALL the issues.  And, then hopefully agree to a strict NILIF program for her.  And, he needs to learn a little more about a not so easy dog.  And, take that from there.  I know for me, my husband felt a lot better when I gave him a list of things we were going to do to manage Willow.  Of course, your dog isn't like Willow was but men tend to like that.  A plan, something to do to solve the issue.  So, if you present it like that it might help.  As far as the dog being more important.  I finally had to sit my husband down and tell him (very firmly) he is my husband and I love him like you'd love a partner, lover, best friend, confidant, etc.  And, she's like my KID(which we don't have human ones so it's that much worse) and the two are just not comparable.  I don't love her more, I love her completely differently.  And, if it seemed like I give her a lot of attention, it's because she NEEDS it.  Let's face it, they can't do stuff on their own.  And, that sort of put that issue to bed for us--using that analogy. 

If he isn't willing to budge then you've got a decision to make.  And, honestly, to me it already seems like you know what it would be.  And, frankly, I don't blame you.  But, my biggest issue in a situation like yours would be the very huge ultimatum of giving up something I loved very quickly without a fair chance to at least do it right. 
 
Honestly, and please dont' take this the wrong way or as a negative to him--I don't know him--but it sounds to me like he wants out for other reasons and isn't able to do it.  THIS way, he doesn't have to make the decision.  It's like YOUR making it.  And, he probably knows you won't give up the dog so then he can go around saying how YOU wouldn't give up the dog so it's YOUR fault, NOT his.  My ex was a lot like that. 

Lori

I'm sorry he put you in such a terrible situation. Are things better today?

Hi -- Outdoorschik's laptop wasn't letting her sign in this morning so she emailed me and asked me to post this for her:
 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Well he came back after apparently driving to Massachusetts and back. He's currently sleeping so I'm not going to try and talk to him now. I think I'll write my thoughts and decision on this issue down and email it so he can read it without interupting me.
 

You know, after not getting a wink of sleep, I'm just feeling pretty darn moody about all of this and want to yell, "who do you think you are telling me to put my dog down" but of course that won't accomplish anything. He was calmer when he got back but still consistently saying Snickers had to go. I dare him to hurt her... I've got places to go with my dogs in a pinch so if he kicks me out it's not the worst thing that could happen. Honestly, I'm going to offer to crate her at night in the bedroom, muzzle her in the house until she is seen by a behaviorist to evaluate danger (so it's coming from a professional, not me) and to not let her interact with company, etc. That is going above and beyond and is overkill, but if that is not enough then he truly doesn't want to work this out for some other reason and I have nothing else to do or say. "+++++++++++++++++++++++++++ She'll be back as soon as she can but she also said to me  +++++++++++++++++++++++++++"PS - would you mind posting that to idog? For some reason my lap top refuses to let me log in... it keeps saying the session timed out or something. I feel bad not having updated all the people that were so nice as to read and offer words of support. Thanks so much for listening... it's amazing how much better you can feel after getting something out and knowing people have read it and care. I'd like this to work out, but I am getting sick of these fights and sick of him threatening divorce... each time he says it I almost hurt less..."+++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Often when stuff like this reaches flashpoint there are a ton of other things unreported, and maybe even unthought of that affect it all.  She truly appreciated the fact that you folks gave her support last night when she was alone and upset.  She'll be back to address it all personally as soon as she gets the day sorted out.

Callie... you said it when you called it trumped up and reactive... he can be very reactive, very forceful and demanding when he has decided something and dramatic. this is not the first time he's threatened divorce in our short marriage, but this time is very different. He may calm down later but i don't feel that this would be the end of it and to be quite honest knowing him as well as I do, I don't expect him to calm down... nearly exactly as callie described it, I expect him to use this choice of his to justify leaving me because I am, in his words, "that da&n psycho".

As I read this, I am saddened because I don't see words that suggest a rather solid marriage and an ultimatum simply based on someone's lack of dog knowledge.  I see words that suggest a basic lack of respect and dignity for you, although I realize I am only seeing one side.  I think the question any woman must ask herself is, "Does this person really and truly love me for who I am, does he respect my opinions, is he the person I would be willing to have as a father for my children, and is he someone I truly respect and admire?"  If the answers that you make, honestly and to yourself, are not positive, and he won't consider counseling (which, to me, would suggest a willingness to consider other viewpoints but his own, and come to terms with your unhappiness), then maybe it is time to evaluate how you want to live, what you are willing to sacrifice (and why), and come to some conclusion about your future. I'm very sorry this is happening to you, but I think you have larger issues than just dogs.  

I think he is saying the same thing.

 I would start freaking because my line of thinking would be....He would give me up because he doesn't like my dog????

ORIGINAL: outdoorschik

.. it hurts that i know he says that "dog is more important than him or our relationship"

Ok, I'm able to get on on this computer...thanks callie for posting my update.
he has left... seemingly for good. He stated that he couldn't live here with my dog, even under the conditions I suggesed. (muzzle, behaviorist, crate at night and when visitors are here). He said if I was not going to chose to bring her to the shelter or have her put down he could do it for me or he would make the choice for me. I said that I could not... would not put her to sleep and would not drop her off at the shelter... no matter how much he means to me, that would break me.
His decision for me was that he could not stay if I was bitter for him making me get rid of my dog and he coudl not stay if she was here so he's gone. He asked me to make a decision as to what I wanted... if I wanted to take the house and take over payments or find a place to live etc... I told him i couldn't make a decision or even thinnk about calmly future planning without him. He began to flip out, said we were not accomplishing anything and became threatening towards snickers in her crate... I asked him to leave.
I am a mess.... he wanted me to wrap it up nicely and say, this is ok, i get it, I'll just go work on my portfolio that's due wednesday, be fine and move on. When I couldn't wrap it up for him with a little bow and send him off with my blessing he began to lose it. I think he has some problems beyond me adn our relationship. I wish i could help him, I wish I could work this out, but I will not give up my dog for him when she has never behaved threateningly towards him and when he was bitten b/c his hand was in a dog fight... I'm willing to do a lot of things... give up the new dog to prevent fights and everything else I listed, but it's not enough...I think i am being reasonable...
this is sheer misery, I must admit. I called my sister in law to come get her dogs again.. she had tickets for a concert tonight. I feel bad.

Anne - thank you for your thoughts... i think you are right that I have larger issuees than the dogs. I think I shouldn't be allowing myself to be in this unhealthy relationship if ti does not change drastically, which apparnetly it won't and I think he has larger mental health issues that are undiagnnosed. I'm not saying that to bash him or be a jerk, but even my sister in law and several of our friends, after hearing it all, knowing me, and knowing him, have stated that they support me and say that I am behaving reasonably and that he is not.

I am coming into this late but I feel this may be a huge blessing in disguise for you. I cannot imagine raising children with a man who has this explosive a temper. I would seriously fear for the safety of my children. Tookey has bitten my own DH, the ultimatum issue hasn't ever come up and would never come  up. We both calmly discussed why it happened (DH's fault, of course!) and what steps we needed to take to address it. Is he scared of Tookey to this day? Yes. But he knows that being a grown up means when you take in an animal you take on the responsibility of that animal and it's care and that means pursuing treatment for behavioral and physical problems. (I see that you already brought this up to him.) Him not wanting to abide by your VERY reasonable, mature and responsible plan that you had laid out indicates to me a significant lack of maturity and anger control that makes for a dangerous combination. I just think, even though you are hurting and confused, that you have been given an open window to climb out of what would mostly likely have become a painful, demoralizing, destructive and  possibly dangerous marriage. If you do "patch things up" I would insist upon counseling if I were you, (and if he said "no", that would be a deal breaker for me) because I see the warning signs that I have heard many client's discuss about the very problematic relationships they were trying to recover from.

Just seeing this thread myself and I'm sorry for the really difficult time you've been going thru.  I have only one suggestion, and it's based on personal experience.  If he comes back, and I wouldn't be terribly surprised if he does, have a plan.  Often at times like this, everyone is so glad it's over that they sort of bury the issues and try to move on.  I'd take this opportunity, if it presents itself, to push hard for couples counseling.  It sounds like there are deeper problems and this might be the perfect time to get them out in the light of day.  I wish you the best in whatever happens. 

I'm sorry Outdoor Chick whose dog shares a great physical trait with my own--hip dysplasia. I wish that your DH had been able to work with you and the trainer way back when so he could have aired out his concerns and then learned how to be with Snickers. 
 
I agree with you and many others--it's bigger than Snickers. Maybe he thinks you get your way (having dogs on the bed, etc) or, you  know, worry too much about the dogs (and not him), and it gets so easy to blame the dog.
 
For the record, my Murphy bit my niece last summer and I did get a behaviorist who was finally able to come over and evaluate him a few weeks ago, guess what, he loves Murphy and sees a TON of value and trust in him (and sees him as incredibly trainable, too) BUT he also recognizes that my sisters (let alone their kids) have NO idea how to be around a dog, let alone a strange dog. So, I will be Murphy's advocate. He said, over and over, no way is Murphy an aggressive dog. Not even.  
 
But, my sister whose daughter was bit is in town right now, and I'm not going to see her. I have begged her forgiveness more times than I can count, and I did all the right things with Murphy--took him to 3 vets, 2 trainers, and hired a behaviorist and guess what? Each and every one of them said that Murphy is OK and that he shouldn't be PTS over this.
 
And I think, sometimes, what if I had put him to sleep that day? I'm pretty sure she wouldn't be talking to me today anyway and I'd be forever hurt (in a different way than I am now) that I lost him and she still held it all against me. I'm not saying a dog bite is OK, but it was an accident and accidents do happen in life.
 
The funny thing is--now that the behaviorist said Murphy is a good dog, my other sisters are coming around and are open to learning how to work with Murphy (and his HD). Things between the rest of us are getting better and I love having some company again! Sometimes some education works wonders, which is why it would be great if your DH could get involved with that aspect of Snickers.
 
In your case, I'm sorry--Snickers is not that old, but she does have arthritis (very painful and does cause crabbiness, as we both know), and she does have an issue here and there,  and her adjusting to a new life would take some time (do I know HD dogs or what?) and I know that weighs on your mind.
 
Maybe, with Oliver, Snickers, and the new dog, it's become a lot for him and he feels like he's less important. And perhaps there is some truth to Callie's comments. It's too bad he can't tell you that, though, you know? erhaps he'll come through and be able to communicate his true thoughts and feelings soon. (Is he good at that?)
 
Nancy  
 
 

Why do the big ones always happen during Finals Week, too? I'm sorry!

Outdoorschick-
 
I'm not sure I have anything new to add; Spiritdogs summed up what I was thinking quite nicely.  Like everyone else, I think the dog issue is not really the big issue.  Perhaps control is?  I don't know.  I do know that we're only getting one side of the issue but a three things really stood out to me as HUGE warning bells.
 
1. He refuses to even consider counselling.  Personally, if my DH thought we needed counselling, I'd go.  Even if I thought things were fine.  If something was bothering him so much for him to suggest counselling, we'd NEED to go.  It's a reasonable request, especially when considering divorce.  Does he really think things are so fine you don't need counselling?  Or does he think things will get worse?   I don't get it.
 
2. He called you a name.  Is this the first time he's done this?  (No need to really answer me.)  I just cannot, under any circumstance, imagine my DH calling me a name like that.  I cannot imagine me calling him a name like that.  I can't imagine doing that to someone I really loved or had respect for.   Is this really what you view as a loving marriage?  Promise me you'll think on that.  I don't know you from Adam's house cat, but I do know you deserve better.  Everyone deserves better.
 
3. By asking you to get rid of your dog, he's making a demand for you to change who you are.  You're the kind of person who takes responsiblities seriously, even when it is difficult.  You came up with a reasonable plan.  It doesn't sound like your dog is human-aggressive.  I've been in the middle of a dog fight and gotten bitten.  It's kind of like being in the middle of a bar fight.  (Maybe?  I've never been in a barfight, but I've seen them on tv.)  Some punches get thrown erronously.  That's very different from a dog out and out attacking a human.  Again, I'm wondering about the control issue. 
 
I hope you can find some peace soon.  And I appologize in advance if this note sounds curt or whatnot.  I'm coming off 2 days of agility (good, good days) and lack of sleep due to new puppy-itis. 

Just seeing this too and want to offer my sympathies in this situation.

I had a couple of thoughts from what you have said in others posts on this thread. One is that he has made this sort of threat of divorce before? And it has worked right? You have been trying to work things out for him? I'm sorry if you mentioned it and I missed it, but what changes has he made for you? I guess the point I'm trying to make is that he may have learned that he can kind of push you around in your attempt to make things ok. Do you know what I mean? I'm sorry if I'm way off target here but its just something that some guys do, when they feel they are being challenged.

BF and I have been getting along very well for quite some time, but we have had our differences too. He has to be in control all the time and can get edgy if he feels he's not in control. He has ADHD and OCD. Alot of people I know with OCD are neatfreaks which is another thing you mentioned. Again sorry if I'm of base.

Another thing I have noticed with BF is that while he is quick to blowup, he is also very quick to forgive and forget. Lately I have learned to ignore his outbursts as that seems to make him feel as though he really doesnt have to carry through with them. BUT when I was giving into his demands they got progressively worse and he left once when I was first pregnant with Kali.

I don't know you or your husband but my gut feeling through this thread is that he is doing this to see if he still has control. BF was willing to give up some of his control and in that way we were able to come to an agreement of sorts. I had to quit treating his outbursts like he was a kid having a tantrum. We are doing well now. But if your husband can't give up a bit of that control...

Anyway its Just My [sm=2cents.gif] I wish you all the best in whatever you make of this.