While we're on the topic of religion...

ORIGINAL: ron2

I think a person will get to heaven by being as decent a person as they can be and treating others pretty much the way they would want to be treated.

Except that, in the New Testament, Christ said that Man cannot enter the Kingdom of God by works, alone. One must accept Christ as Saviour. You could lead a life of exemplary behavior, doing all good deeds for your fellow man and never harm another person and still not go to Heaven if you do not profess Christ as your Savior.

It doesn't matter all the times I've helped someone with their car on the side of the road, spread a good word, even saved a person's life, if I haven't done that one thing, I'm on the highway to hell.

But, again, that assumes that Christianity is the only true religion. Personally, I prefer the native way of thinking of the Creator.  Various nations have different names for him, but pretty much think of him as the "Great Mystery".

ORIGINAL: ron2

I think a person will get to heaven by being as decent a person as they can be and treating others pretty much the way they would want to be treated.

Except that, in the New Testament, Christ said that Man cannot enter the Kingdom of God by works, alone. One must accept Christ as Saviour. You could lead a life of exemplary behavior, doing all good deeds for your fellow man and never harm another person and still not go to Heaven if you do not profess Christ as your Savior.

It doesn't matter all the times I've helped someone with their car on the side of the road, spread a good word, even saved a person's life, if I haven't done that one thing, I'm on the highway to hell.

But the flipside to that is you don't have to be perfect to go to heaven. If I had to live a life like the one stated above, I would have already failed. If it were works that was what made us go to heaven then I would surely be sent sraight the other way.  I am a very falable person, as are we all. But, by just doing one simple thing, accepting that Christ took the punishment for the times that I am not the perfect person, then I can get to heaven. To me that is a lot easier than doing all those works. And when I fall short, it is nice to no that my actions will not affect whether or not I go to heaven.

That doesn't mean I can be a complete idiot and not pay the consequences: You step out in front of a bus you're going to get hit. Or that I should not try to be a good person; faith without works is dead. But it does mean that I won't have to pay the eternal consequence of going to hell for my mistakes or what I don't do.

ORIGINAL: Aina

That doesn't mean I can be a complete idiot and not pay the consequences: You step out in front of a bus you're going to get hit. Or that I should not try to be a good person; faith without works is dead. But it does mean that I won't have to pay the eternal consequence of going to hell for my mistakes or what I don't do.

 
I don't believe for a minute that we're going to suffer any eternal consequences for mistakes or failings, or even for wrong things we do if we're genuinely sorry for them. We are, after all, human. As for the New Testament - that rolled off the presses sometime in the 1500s, didn't it?  I don't think anyone then had a clue what Christ thought or said about anything. It's all based pretty much on the opinions of the writers and what they did or didn't believe.
 
Joyce

But the flipside to that is you don't have to be perfect to go to heaven. If I had to live a life like the one stated above, I would have already failed. If it were works that was what made us go to heaven then I would surely be sent sraight the other way. I am a very falable person, as are we all. But, by just doing one simple thing, accepting that Christ took the punishment for the times that I am not the perfect person, then I can get to heaven. To me that is a lot easier than doing all those works.

It seems to me that good works and the like should get more weight than belief in Jesus. I understand that it's the latter which sets Christianity apart from other religions, since essentially all of them encourage moral behavior and charity and so on, but honestly: is belief in Jesus really something that should be valued above a lifetime of moral behavior?

Where's the cut-off? If I steal, and believe in Jesus, is that OK? If I murder? Even if the cut-off is at "stealing a couple of cars that one time, and regretting it," why should the Christian thief be more deserving of a pleasant afterlife than an atheist who never stole so much as a penny?

And as for dogs, which lack the complexities of human emotions and simply aren't capable of the types of things humans are (hate, war, genocide), they are, it seems to me, more deserving of a pleasant afterlife than most humans. I, at least, have broken at least commandments 2, 3, 4, 9, and 10 (and I happily eat shellfish, wear polyester, am gay, etc); I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling a little immoral, by Biblical standards, compared to the average canine!

ORIGINAL: fuzzy_dogs_mom

As for the New Testament - that rolled off the presses sometime in the 1500s, didn't it?  I don't think anyone then had a clue what Christ thought or said about anything. It's all based pretty much on the opinions of the writers and what they did or didn't believe.
 
Joyce

 
While the Bible as we know it today didn't go into mass print until that time, the individual books have been around for much longer. The New Testament books (the Gospels, letters to the churches, etc) were written in fact written by apostles and those who knew Jesus personally. It was a while later that the "books" (accounts and letters) were compiled into the Bible. Just as a side note, there are actually a number of accounts that didn't make it into the Bible for one reason or the other. The Apocrypha (present in many Catholic-based Bibles) contain some of these rejected texts.

You would be amazed at how many people go to church, who have heard certain "sayings" all their life and claim it's from the bible, but it isn't. So, alot of people go to a christian church, but don't actually pick up the bible and study it themselves. That's a big deal.

It IS a big deal! I agree, 100%.

It seems to me that good works and the like should get more weight than belief in Jesus. I understand that it's the latter which sets Christianity apart from other religions,

Untrue. The devil, himself, believes in Jesus. Lots of folks believe in Jesus, or believe in God. That's *NOT* what Christianity is about. It's about *accepting* Jesus, and being a follower of Christ.

ORIGINAL: LittleMousling

It seems to me that good works and the like should get more weight than belief in Jesus. I understand that it's the latter which sets Christianity apart from other religions, since essentially all of them encourage moral behavior and charity and so on, but honestly: is belief in Jesus really something that should be valued above a lifetime of moral behavior?

 
Warning: Christian theological discussion
 
I tend to agree with you that just believing in Jesus is NOT enough to get a person into Heaven. The Bible mentions several times that many will claim to know Jesus, but He will reject them. It even points out that demons in Hell believe in Jesus. Jesus didn't die so people could causually acknowledge Him and live their lives as they please. He lived to show us how to treat one another and died to show us how serious following God should be taken. As much as a person may claim to be a Christian, if they aren't making an true effort to be honest and compassionate, they are spitting in God's face. It's like telling a parent, "Yeah, your kid jumped in front of that car to save me & died himself, but I don't care. I like standing in the middle of traffic." 
 
End of Christian Rant
 
That being said, I also have a hard time believing that every person who is not a Christian is going to Hell. It's easy to think such a thing here in the US where Christianity is pretty widely known. But there are, and have always been, people who have never heard of Jesus, yet still faithfully live good lives according to their beliefs. God is fair & I doubt He cares whether he is called God or Allah or the Great Spirit. The effort and love that a person shows in their life is much more important than the label placed on a person.

My brain said don`t do this - this not in a bar but on a dog forum. But here I am. To start with I do not care what your believe is. I wouldn`t  treat you any different from anyone else. Your believe is yours and my believe is mine. If you ask questions on my belief I will tell you. I do not push my belief on anyone. It was said on this post that good works will get you in to heaven. Just doing good works - good deeds won`t ever get you into heaven. Every humane sins (every one no matter who they are) and sins everyday. I could be the nicest person on earth and not go to heaven. Why? Heaven is a free gift from God to everyone all you have to do is take it. Then your sins past - present - future  are gone.

Believe Jesus the son of God (creator of all things) was born and lived on this earth and was crucified on a cross for our sins , past ,present, future. Not just mine either. If there was only one person on this earth he would have done the same thing just for that one person. Then try to live a Christ like life. That is where your good deeds or works come in. Humanes are not perfect so we will always sin but as christians we try not to. Yes criminals can go to heaven. Jesus on the cross is an example. It is so simple - believe - confess your sins - and try do do good.

As far as animals in heaven yes I think it is so. I`ve been told they they do not have a soul so they won`t be there. I think God made the world perfect. Man messed it up. Heaven is said to be like earth with  flowers, grass, trees, ect. So I think our animals will be there also.

Please don`t give back neg. feed back to me. I am just doing what I thought I should do. Any christians that want to correct on anything I said me feel free to do so.

ORIGINAL: mollymoo

Heaven is said to be like earth with  flowers, grass, trees, ect.

 
This question has absolutely nothing to do with the original intent of this thread, but just out of curiousity, what scripture did you find that said heaven would be like that?

((This question has absolutely nothing to do with the original intent of this thread, but just out of curiousity, what scripture did you find that said heaven would be like that?))
 
 
 
Where did I quote any scriptures from anything in my reply? I have read more books then just the bible. This was from one of the other books that I have read. Why - what do you think heaven should look like if you believe in a heaven? As I said before I did not reply to the post to get bad feedback. Just said what I believe as you all did also. You can take what I said as a grain of salt its your choice.
 
 

 The Bible mentions several times that many will claim to know Jesus, but He will reject them.

 
I would like to know where the bible says this. Thanks

ORIGINAL: LittleMousling


It seems to me that good works and the like should get more weight than belief in Jesus. I understand that it's the latter which sets Christianity apart from other religions, since essentially all of them encourage moral behavior and charity and so on, but honestly: is belief in Jesus really something that should be valued above a lifetime of moral behavior?

Where's the cut-off? If I steal, and believe in Jesus, is that OK? If I murder? Even if the cut-off is at "stealing a couple of cars that one time, and regretting it," why should the Christian thief be more deserving of a pleasant afterlife than an atheist who never stole so much as a penny?

And as for dogs, which lack the complexities of human emotions and simply aren't capable of the types of things humans are (hate, war, genocide), they are, it seems to me, more deserving of a pleasant afterlife than most humans. I, at least, have broken at least commandments 2, 3, 4, 9, and 10 (and I happily eat shellfish, wear polyester, am gay, etc); I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling a little immoral, by Biblical standards, compared to the average canine!

Ok, ity is like this. You get an admission ticket to a football game. That is accepting God as savior. This is shown by the theif on the cross. (Not just believing, the demons believe and tremble)
But, if you want to get 'better seating' then you do good. There are quite a few verses about rewards in the bible, and it is something I believe in strongly.

For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his
angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with
blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a
blessing.

[font="arial"]There are a lot of other verses that suggest that rewards will be a big thing in heaven and on earth.
NOT following his commands will get you punished on earth, and you will go to heaven if you are 'saved' but I don't believe it will be as good.
Like the theif on the cross. He believed, but did Jesus take him off the cross for doing so? No.

I think that pets will be in heaven, never said otherwise. Thje lion will lie down with the lamb.
No one will have need to eat the flesh of beasts and all will live in perfect peace.
[/font]

ORIGINAL: mollymoo

 The Bible mentions several times that many will claim to know Jesus, but He will reject them.

I would like to know where the bible says this. Thanks

 
From [linkhttp://www.truthsaves.org]www.truthsaves.org[/link]:
 
Do You Know Him?Many people claim the title "Christian." Yet many of the same people ignore what Jesus tells us in the Bible. The Bible teaches about true Christianity; about becoming a disciple of Jesus.
 
First, we must believe. [linkhttp://truthsaves.org/articles/baptism.shtml#vs]Read these verses.[/link] The Bible plainly sets forth belief in Jesus as the requirement for eternal life. Within the context of Scripture, we understand that belief requires action. We believe, we give up sin, and we seek to love God with our entire being.
[blockquote]"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,'shall enter the the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'"
Matthew 7:21-22 (NKJ) [/blockquote]
You see? Belief requires action. Jesus says those that will enter heaven are the ones who do the Father#%92s will. See what Scripture says about loving God.
[blockquote]"Teacher, what is the great commandment in the law?" Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment."
Matthew 22:36-38 (NKJ) [/blockquote]
           "...whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple." 
          Luke 14:25-28, 33 (NKJ)
 
John 8:51 quotes Jesus as saying,
[blockquote]"Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."
John 8:51 (NKJ) [/blockquote]
We who trust in Jesus need have no fear of death. What an awesome benefit!
 
Second, we experience the inexpressible joy resulting from a personal relationship with the God of the universe. We discover true freedom. We discover success. We find happiness. We throw off the shackles of depression, addiction, sorrow, fear, loneliness – in short, we discover that we#%92re no longer in bondage.
[blockquote]"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
John 8:32 (NKJ)
But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:22-2 (NKJ) [/blockquote]
[blockquote]. . . that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; that you may love the LORD your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days…
Deuteronomy 30:19-20 (NKJ) [/blockquote]

I've enjoyed reading this thread. 
 
Yes, I am saddened by the number of hurtful things that Christians have said to unbelievers in what I believe is a pretty feeble attempt at "witnessing" about Christ.  I really think that 90% of the people who call themselves Christian on this earth, do not truly "get it".  Jesus was not about making others wrong in order to gain their belief.  Jesus' message were about loving eachother.  Yes, Jesus did rebuke people who did things that were against God's will and God's word.  Jesus became angry (at the money changers in the temple, for example, and also at the hypocrisy of the Pharisees) - but this was not an anger that comes from a hateful place.  It was a "righteous anger" that offered salvation, grace, redemption, and welcome.  Jesus associated with people whom the major religion at the time deemed totally undesirable: whores, tax collectors, lepers - people whom society wanted nothing to do with.  This is a beautiful example of the love of God, and shows God's commitment that no matter what any of us do on this earth, He will never forget about us, stop caring about what happens to us, or stop loving us.
 
I've taken a long road in my life to reach Jesus.  I was born in an unchurched home although my Mother, out of some odd sense of "duty", took me to church occasionally.  I didn't know really what anything was about and I didn't receive any biblical education. When I went to college, I nearly became a Bah'ai.  Then I followed the Lakota (Sioux) path for several years.  During that time I met some judgmental Christians, people who pitied me for my "ultimate destination".  Yes, they served to push me away from Christianity. 
 
What turned the tide for me was I encountered a group of Christians who were patient with all my arguing and anger, and just explained who Jesus was and what he was about.  I began to realize that Jesus Christ really has nothing to do with "organized Religion" as we know it today.  One of my favorite sayings is: Don't believe in Religion, just read what He said!  And I realized that all of the murders, exterminations (especially of the Native Americans, which was very painful for me personally because of my ties to that community), crusades etc. done in His name probably made God cry.  God is not about murder and death to prove His point that we are all, ALL worthy of His love because He died for each and every one of us.  No one of us is better than anyone else and we all have our burdens and struggles in this world.  It is a true Christian who wears these struggles close to his/her heart and is unafraid to share his/her humanity with unbelievers.  We're followers of Christ - that does not mean we have everything all together in our lives.  Yet because we have Christ, we have grace and the promise of His presence with us to heal our wounds and allow us to be that which He created us to be.  And that is something powerful!