While we're on the topic of religion...

Like Scout in Canada said, it's often the WORDING that most Christians use that causes offense.
 
When a non christian talks about heir religion/beliefs, 9 times out of ten, they use words like "I believe," "I think," "According to my religion," etc. They state what they believe, usually make a point of saying "That's just what I believe, everyone is different" and in general are VERY respectful of other people's beliefs.
 
9 times out of 10, Christians use wording like "This is the way it is," "I feel sorry for you all for not believeing what I believe," "Just saying that this is how it is," "I worship the one true god," etc. It is incredibly condescending- like only christianity is "right" and all non-christians are to be pitied or disdained. Now, I'm not saying that all christians are this way by any means- that certainly isn't the case. But the majority that I come into contact with (and I'm in contact with many, I *do* live in the Bible belt,) are usually incredibly patronizing and condescending in their attitudes towards non-christians. On the other hand, I have never, ever, not *once* met a non-christian who behaved this way towards someone with different beliefs, christian or otherwise.
 
THAT is where I think the issue comes in- non-christians are not offended by christians, but by their tone.
 
Let me bring my own experience into the equation as an example:
 
My beleifs (or religion, if you want to call it that) all stems from things I started seeing as a small child. From the time I was very, very young I saw other beings and another world and interacted with those beings and that world. It was not the result of an overractive imagination- these things were completely tangible in every way, and remain so to this day. The things I see are as real to me as a person walking down the street. I can see, touch, hear, smell, and talk to them. They are not things that exist only in my head.
 
But, I was raised in a christian household. My mother went to a private christian school growing up, and my stepfather was a retired ordained Baptist Minister. The moment I started talking about these beings that I saw, it was written off as imagination. It was so insulting and hurt me so deeply that my parents reduced these things that meant so much to me to nothing more than a little girl "pretending," that I never mentioned it again until I was a teenager. By then they had forgotten that I had ever brought it up, and they wrote it off this time as me trying to get attention, or just be "rebellious." When I persisted, and finally let them know that I didn't consider myself a christian, that the things I saw and knew were real and believed in didn't line up with christianity, they lost it. They drug me to church, had everyone there pray for me, threw me into church counseling, took away every book, movie, and CD I had because they were "poisoning my mind," and they had their church group all but try to exorcise me. My parents told me that if I DID actually see the things I claimed to see, they were "demons" and that I was "evil" and had "let the devil into my life." I was treated like trash, like damaged goods, called a liar, and prevented from expressing my beliefs in any way. After I moved out, I was told that if I wanted any relationship with them, I was never, ever to mention any of it to them every again.
 
Did I hold it against my parents and their church? No, I didn't. They have conviction in their beliefs, and deep down, they wanted what they thought was best for me. As cruel as they were about it, in their minds, they were only trying to help. On holidays, I still go to a christian church with my family. When they come over to my house for dinner, we say a chrsitian prayer. When they come over, I also have to take down all of my unicorn figures, candles, and any other expression of my beliefs that I have on display- in my own house. I do it to avoid conflict. I want to have a relationship with my parents, and unfortunately, that's the price I have to pay for it.
 
 
And the kicker is that my parents don't even actually know what I believe. They were so busy condemning me and spitting prayers at me that they never stopped to ask what I actually believed. All they knew was that it was different from them, and was therefore "evil." What kind of a worldview is it to believe that everyone is wrong but people who think exactly like you?
 
Through all of this, the only people who have ever been supportive have been the non-christians that I know. I have some very nice christian friends, but they always seem to be telling me that they'll "pray for me," or making statements that imply that I need help in some way. I have AMAZING conviction in my beliefs, and am totally happy- since I can actually see and interact with these things, I know that they're real and I have nothing to question. It is incredibly insulting the attitude and tone - no matter how good the intentions behind them are- that most christians take with non-christians. I don't need to be "saved," and I honestly can't understand why there can only be one truth for some people.
 
The non-christians that I've met have been so incredibly accepting towards me. It can be pretty difficult to tell people that you actually see and communicate with beings from a spirit world without sounding like some kind of new-agey freak. The only people I've been able to tell without shame or embarrasment have been my non-christian friends. They have accepted my beliefs, not belittled them, and I wish I could say the same for the christian people in my life. They continuously try to preach to me and "help me find the path," but let me say ONE thing about my beliefs..let me ask them to participate in ONE thing pertaining to my religion...and they're gone before I can blink.
 
That has been my experience with christianity in general- and again, let me say that I am NOT implying that all christians are this way- just that the majority I have come in contact with are. Even in this thread, I've seen alot of "this is how it is," "my god is the one true god," all with the implications that all other beliefs are silly.
 
Personally, I believe that there are many different realities and that everything is true- literally. I think that non-christians would have less of a problem with christians if christians didn't come across as though they're the only ones who know the "truth," and everyone else is in need of "salvation." Just my [sm=2cents.gif]
 
 

I have always been told 'don`t discuss Politics or Religion in bars or on dog forums'.  It can become a hot discussion, so I have decided to refrain from discussing it.  Deciding not to discuss this here has nothing to do with my religion.  I just want to let fellow Christians know that this is not a cop-out on my part.   I know, as a Christian, what we (as Christians) are suppose to do, but I don`t think anyone here would listen so we would be knocking our head against the wall. 

To be honest, I think that if there is a Heaven, atheists will also go there, if for no other reason than their absolute honesty in saying that they don't believe in it.  Maybe it will earn them more points than some Christians will earn for being intolerant. []

Brittany,
 
I would like to respond to some of the things that you said, but maybe another time.  Right now I just feel hit in the stomach by what you said your parents said to you when you were a teenager.  Maybe they said something in the "heat of the moment", but I'm still in shock by it.  To have said that you were evil is so, so, so wrong that I'm just speechless.   I completely realize that you didn't share your story for me to feel sorry for you.  You have made it clear that you are fine with everything, and have even made concessions in order to keep a relationship with your parents.  Kudo's for that.  So, I know you don't want my "sympathy".  But, I do feel empathy and great sadness about these words they said, or them making you feel that you were evil.  I know that you wrote this for another reason - to show why you have this viewpoint, and I realize that that was the point, not the story in and of itself.  I am glad that you understand that the measures they took they did in what they felt to be in your best interest.  But, I am sincerely hoping that they didn't  actually feel that you were evil, but that that is how it came across to you - which would be completely understandable. I can see how these two could be mixed up.  And, I am thinking you might be annoyed at my staying on this particular subject, so I will leave it now. []

Wow, what a long thread[]

I believe that my dogs are going to heaven. I watched one dog frolick out of her sick, emaciated body, and make her happy, puppy way there. I've seen too many animals die to think that that's the end of it, and I see too many other things (not related to death) to believe that death is the end. I go to a Christian church. The leaders of said church believe differently than I do, and have laughed in my face about it. I still go, because I like the church. I hate seeing what goes on, sometimes, but I haven't found any better church to go to, and I need to worship in a group setting, on occasion. I believe in the Bible, and I've never seen any evidence in there that God doesn't love and treasure ALL of His creation. I'm probably more on the new agey end of Christianity (at least of the people that *I* know) because I believe that ALL life is sacred, ALL life matters, it's NOT all about people, and I believe in a very active spirit world that exists all around us.

If there's a heaven (and I personally think there is) I don't think a persons religious beliefs, or whether or not they have a religion at all, will determine if they get there.  I think a person will get to heaven by being as decent a person as they can be and treating others pretty much the way they would want to be treated. I never believed that heaven is just  for Christians, born again or otherwise.
 
Joyce

ORIGINAL: fuzzy_dogs_mom

If there's a heaven (and I personally think there is) I don't think a persons religious beliefs, or whether or not they have a religion at all, will determine if they get there.  I think a person will get to heaven by being as decent a person as they can be and treating others pretty much the way they would want to be treated. I never believed that heaven is just  for Christians, born again or otherwise.
 
Joyce

I agree, i cant believe that a serial killer that has no remorse about what he does wont go to hell because does not have a religion or actually he truly thinks that by killing he will go to heaven, just like the 9/11 terrorists, their own beliefs made them think that by doing that they would go to heaven for sure and i dont think they are there

ORIGINAL: Ratsicles

Like Scout in Canada said, it's often the WORDING that most Christians use that causes offense.

When a non christian talks about heir religion/beliefs, 9 times out of ten, they use words like "I believe," "I think," "According to my religion," etc. They state what they believe, usually make a point of saying "That's just what I believe, everyone is different" and in general are VERY respectful of other people's beliefs.

9 times out of 10, Christians use wording like "This is the way it is," "I feel sorry for you all for not believeing what I believe," "Just saying that this is how it is," "I worship the one true god," etc. It is incredibly condescending- like only christianity is "right" and all non-christians are to be pitied or disdained. Now, I'm not saying that all christians are this way by any means- that certainly isn't the case. But the majority that I come into contact with (and I'm in contact with many, I *do* live in the Bible belt,) are usually incredibly patronizing and condescending in their attitudes towards non-christians. On the other hand, I have never, ever, not *once* met a non-christian who behaved this way towards someone with different beliefs, christian or otherwise.

I agree

ORIGINAL: Ratsicles

When they come over, I also have to take down all of my unicorn figures, candles, and any other expression of my beliefs that I have on display- in my own house. I do it to avoid conflict. I want to have a relationship with my parents, and unfortunately, that's the price I have to pay for it.

I think you should not hide what you believe in, thats part of you, i dont think your parents would do the same if you go over to visit them, why you have to do it then? your parents for sure would tell you "well if you want to have a relationship with us you have to accept that we believe in this"

Is not fair that they can show proudly what they believe in and you dont, IMO it should not be that way, you dont want problems with your parents but maybe you are having problems with your God by hiding him/her, it should be the other way, if your parents want a relationship with you then they have to be respectful, because that it is what is happening, they dont respect your beliefs and therefor they dont respect you, thats why i think you are still under their influence, you moved out but you in a way are still trying to make them believe that you are doing what they want by not showing your true beliefs, if they are real Christians they will forgive you and accept you no matter what because thats what their God told them to do with everybody

I know one person just like that, she is into the Church 100% she writes Christian books and sell them, she has a local Christian TV show eveery week and even has a room dedicated to God only in her house, well that same person does not accept that her daughter in law is Catholic, she makes her go to a Christian church, she told her that if she didnt work with her in the TV show then the daughter in law would be going to hell, etc.

Of course i agree that not all Christians are the same but i find really hypocrite that they preach left and right but dont follow what God told them about accepting and forgiving

ORIGINAL: ron2

My favorite quote comes from a chukchi proverb. The chukchi had the chuckchi dog, aka the Siberian Husky.

How you treat your dogs determines if you get into heaven. If you have treated your dogs well, they await to pull your sled into heaven.

I've never heard that quote before, but it's a really neat thought...

I'm a Christian (Church of Christ--NOT of Later Day Saints & not very well known in the North, I've heard).  When I used to ask as a child, my mother told me that dogs have no souls & just disappear or are reincarnated into other dogs after they die. In a way, it makes sense from a Christian point of view. If all animals had souls equal to humans, then we should all be vegitarians. Killing animals for food would be equal to murder. The Hebrews were ordered to sacrafice animals & had a list of animals ok'ed to be eaten, yet murder of humans was strictly punished. It just wouldn't make sense for animals to be equal to humans in that framework. 

That being said, I can only hope that somehow dogs will be in Heaven. Surely a God who created some many living things & ensured their survival as a species would care about them a great deal. Of course, I can't speculate on something I have no direct knowledge of (i.e. heaven and admission policies). Though we have a Catholic church in town that, as a fundraiser, will sprinkle & pray for your pet, so who knows! Lol.

ORIGINAL: espencer

Of course i agree that not all Christians are the same but i find really hypocrite that they preach left and right but dont follow what God told them about accepting and forgiving

 
Most people, regardless of religion, are a lot more alike that they'd refer to admit. The majority are going to do what they want to do & are more willing to shop for a reason, religion, or textual passage that will back up their own personal desires. I can't speak for other groups, but many of my fellow Christians hold on to specific passages that back their own belief (for example, passages on what's immoral) & completely ignore the context of the statement or other passages on love, forgiveness, or being nonjudgemental. They've found what they were looking for to validate their ideas, so don't confuse them with any other information! A very selfish use of religion.
 
I would assume that Christians are not the only ones who do this. More likely, because Christianity is much more popular in the US than, say, Buddism or Hinduism, the hypocrits are more numerous and outspoken. If we lived in another country, it might very well be another group (religous or athiest) that would take on this role.

atheists will also go there

 
I think atheists will have the biggest surprise of all.
 
"What do you mean I don't get an eternity in the Void? I earned that rest!"

I think a person will get to heaven by being as decent a person as they can be and treating others pretty much the way they would want to be treated.

 
Except that, in the New Testament, Christ said that Man cannot enter the Kingdom of God by works, alone. One must accept Christ as Saviour. You could lead a life of exemplary behavior, doing all good deeds for your fellow man and never harm another person and still not go to Heaven if you do not profess Christ as your Savior.
 
It doesn't matter all the times I've helped someone with their car on the side of the road, spread a good word, even saved a person's life, if I haven't done that one thing, I'm on the highway to hell.
 

I hate to say this, but I think it's true:  There are a lot of people who say they are Christians, but they aren't.  Misrepresentation, in a way. 
 
And, there are alot of people who are Christians, but who are so brand new that they don't have the foundational fundamentals down and get things confused.
 
You would be amazed at how many people go to church, who have heard certain "sayings" all their life and claim it's from the bible, but it isn't.  So, alot of people go to a christian church, but don't actually pick up the bible and study it themselves.  That's a big deal.  Everyone should read the bible for themselves and not just listen to other people's viewpoints.  Because sometimes these fundamentals get passed on in a wrong way - wrong information.  Sometimes by deceit, and sometimes by just ignorance of what the bible actually says.
 
People who say that someone is going to ____ because they "dance" with someone, or because they took a sip of alcohol, or because they are not one particular denomination within the Christian churchood, etc, etc.  have it wrong.  Whether by deceit or by ignorance would vary by person.  But that's wrong.  I cannot be in judgement of you (whoever) because I do not know what is in your heart.  I can say, and will say, that you must accept what Jesus did on the cross to forgive your sins, and want to enter into a relationship with Him. 
 
But, you hear so many, many wrong views about saying you can't do this, you must do this, etc, etc.  And these types of people tend to be the ones who are "in your face" about issues.  But, the bible makes it clear that essentially, it is about one thing:  accepting what Jesus did for us.  If you were to venture into a church that has people in it of this correct mindset (and yes, you may have to visit a few churches to find it), then you would be amazed at how much love they offer and how you are accepted - no matter what your past was.  That is the message of Jesus - forgiveness of our sins if we accept that He paid the price for our sins. That's because these people have experienced the forgivness of their own sins thru Christ, they understand that this walk is in freedom, and not bondage, and they are able to share this love with you. 
 
I have found that these types of people will speak their viewpoints, because yes, they do want to share it, but they don't degrade other people, they don't talk down to others, or think that that are better (in fact, the bible tells us not to have a superiour attitude over anyone else), and they don't keep shoving it in someones face very rudely. They share their belief, and accept you where you are at, and I find that these people will love you as much as you will let them, and they are very kind. 
 
But, there are alot of "christians" who just don't behave this way.  There are a lot of churches who don't behave this way.  That's why I said that someone might have to visit more than one church to find these people.  So, in the end, there is a ton of people who go to church who have never entered a relationship with Jesus, who think that they are christians just because they go to church.  And, their behaviour shows otherwise.  There is a difference in sharing what your belief is and trying to browbeat someone else.  True christiananity calls for sharing the "gospel".  It is up to the person hearing the message as to whether they will accept it or not.
 
So, if I were to say that all germans were bad people, because of what Hitler did, and gee, he was german, so therefore, all germans must be just like him, and behave just like him, then, ummm, you would say, "no, just because one german erson was very bad, doesn't make all german people bad".
 
So, I get bothered by the fact that the term "christian" is used so interchangeable with some groups of people who don't truly have the same beliefs as a true Chrisian would.  And this turns some people off, and they don't go looking any further, and end up with a bad attitude of "christians" in general.
 
You go to a dog park and see a few mean, bully dogs in there -- you don't go assume that the rest of the dogs in that same dog park are also mean bullys.  Some might be very nice.  And some might really have some good information worth listening to.  But, if you go assuming that all dogs in the same dog park are all the same, then you haven't given yourself a fair chance at learning something that just might change your life.
 
 
 

quote]
Of course, I can't speculate on something I have no direct knowledge of (i.e. heaven and admission policies). Though we have a Catholic church in town that, as a fundraiser, will sprinkle & pray for your pet, so who knows! Lol.

 
[]  Good point, we can all speculate but we have no direct knowledge of what is going to happen when that time comes.  I love the thoughts of sprinkling and praying for pets... there are churches in the area that do the same thing once a year.  I always call my grandma anytime I feel the need to be prayed for or to pass on a prayer for someone else... it's almost as if she has a direct line to God. []  She often prayed for FeFe and I feel our love & care and those prayers gave us extra time here on Earth with her.  Where ever she is - that's where we wanna be.
 
On another note... I do have one problem (not here on the forum, just out in the world) and this is a result from working with the public.  I find that most religious people try to lead by example.  Being nice, considerate, loving, etc.  There are others that will come into the office and state, first thing that they are a Christian (Methodist, Presbyterian, Church of God, etc. it's a small town, we don't have much more lol) or that they're a preacher and some how, they are the very ones that deceive or are extremely rude.  I just wonder why that is?  Why can't some folks stop their hypocritical ways?  One guy who claimed to be a preacher gave a sermon on why a woman should not divorce her husband (someone that was in the office left an abusive marriage & said she wouldn't subject her kids to that treatment) and the guy said if SHE had faith in God, she would have prayed for him, stayed with him even if he was in jail and put her faith in God that he would change the man.  THEN he told us that he was separated from his wife, had a girlfriend but didn't intend on getting a divorce... ahhh, do what I say, not what I do!  This world is made with different religions - I think we could take our learning to another level if we just gave each other a chance. 

Bragg,
 
That man, preacher or not, is not behaving in a Christian manner.  I have heard from more than one good, honest preacher who do believe in God, state that they would not recommend a women stay in an abusive relationship - and one where beating and hitting is occuring should be left without a doubt, and before the violence excalates. The bible tells us that God does hate divorce, but does not want us to be in abusive relationships.  God does not approve of a man hitting is wife.  That is not ok. Many women have left bad homes, and I think that they should have.  That  ahemm, "preacher", was being hypocritical and clearly does not place the Lord first in his life.  He is not a preacher who is living his life for God, but rather for himself.
 
Why do so many people do this kind of behaviour?  I can think of two reasons:  1) They do not love the Lord, but love money and themselves more, and got into "preaching" as a business venture.  And 2) deceit - by the enemy of God.   To put people in high places in the "church" who clearly do not love the Lord, give christianity a bad name and make people wonder about - just as you said - the hypocrisies of it.  What better way to turn people off than to infilterate the ranks and preach wrong information, lead the church into a split, or behave shamefully.