so "you" would rather punish the poster?

I'm with you on the leadership. When I have to train a new guy, especially brand new to the trade, I expect him to make mistakes. Rather than get mad at him, I ask him to help me think of a way to fix it. If time is short, I will explain how to fix it and ask him to do it. I know from personal experience that someone browbeating me is going to put me on the defensive. Then, I'm thinking about what the other person said, rather than what I should be doing. Other guys will get mad and their lousy production drops to zero. Then, they wander around and complain to the other guys about you. The bad part about that is that they have interrupted other production and now you have two or three guys standing around belly-aching.
 
OTOH, I have had to sometimes be strong and firm if someone is bound to create a problem rather than solve it. I have to be flexible and adjust my reaction to the situation. I don't as a rule, have to bark at people. Sometimes, it's been necessary. And once, I barked literally. This is my fire hydrant. And it worked.
 
Aggression can take other forms, too. Sometimes, a person may disagree with what I said or my viewpoint and make the attack personal by calling into question my ability to think or my motivations, rather than simply disagreeing and offering a counterpoint to what I have said. That hardly answers the initial question and is a standard ploy in arguing for the sake of arguing, i.e., change the track of the debate to an area that you can control.
 
No one is perfect and I think we will always have these difficulties, now and then. I'm not perfect and can offend simply by the choice of one word over another. There are days where I offend everyone just because I woke up and took another breath. It's a gift, or a curse. I've been called out-spoken. That's fair. According to my mom, I've always been that way, verbally and non-verbally. No shame. I say or do what I am going to say or do in front of God and everybody. Yes, it gets me in trouble in other ways. But I can be loyal to a fault, like a good dog.
 

ORIGINAL: willowchow

Honestly, I don't know a thing about breeding. 

But, I do know this issue has been brought up over and over again.  This is a public forum.  If someone comes here and posts a question and is truly wanting to do things right, whatever subject it is, they will take the comments, use what advice they can and ignore what they don't need. 

Now, on the other hand, if they are coming here for validation on something they are doing that they know is wrong and they don't get that, well then all of a sudden everyone is rude. 

Personally, I think there is a difference between being rude and having a difference of opinion.  It seems here as soon as someone disagrees, people need to then defend themselves.  Who said you have to defend yourself??  Who said you have to change anyones mind to your way of thinking??   On my chow forum, they will post a question, everyone gives their opinion and at the end of the thread nobody has responded to each others posts.  The OP has 15 or so opinons, some the same, some not and they do what they think is best for them. 

That's when the problems start.  I don't think it is a matter of being nice.  I think it's a matter of only the people who agree with the OP can respond without a war breaking out.  Sorry, but THAT also does a huge disservice to the OP, dogs and to others reading this forum. 

Over the years, I've gotten a feel for the "type" of owner the new people are by how they post and sometimes there may be more than one "right" way to do something depending on that persons lifestyle, type of dog, location and just generally how they keep their dog.  I might answer the same question a totally different way if someone else asks it.  Does that make sense??    I keep an open mind, not everyone does things exactly like me.   And, the way I do things isn't right for other dogs.  And, nobody has the right to judge others. 

 
I agree.  I think that there is a balence that must be struck.  There is no need to be mean, but if people can't give honest advice, what is the point?

I have to say that one of my first posts was on breeding. I came here asking opinions on why the breeding had not gone as planned. I did not say I was planning to repeat the breeding but I got bashed and ridiculed all the same. Everyone concentrated on bashing me  and they never answered the original question until I asked for the third time. Now that still gets me a bit sad, but hey I took the criticism and continued posting.
 
But not all people are like this...

ORIGINAL: mrv

There are times when the responses on this board are every bit as bad as some of the horror stories I hear about people responding negatively to honest interest on the part of a first time show attendee.

Guess there is some value in the old rule  If you cant say something nice........... 

Oh, this is a bit off topic but I could not STAND this attitude at dog shows! My husband and I attended several to get exposure to many different breeds/breeders, and to really determine whether we even wanted to get a dog. Most breeders/etc were extremely sweet and very interested in having us pet their dogs, check them out, tell us more, etc. But a few acted like we were ruining their day for asking them basic questions when they were just sitting around (it's not like we were approaching them seconds before they were supposed to show their dog!) I asked one woman where she got her dog (as in, I wanted to know what specific breeder she went through, if hey were in the area, etc,) and she looked at me like I was a total moron and said, "Um, a breeder?" and sort of rolled her eyes. It was like, "well, DUH. No, I thought you got your show quality purebred dog from some guy on the street." I just sort of mumbled something and walked away.

It is important to help people out here. I was shocked as I learned more about dogs that so many of my own friends and family didn't know that you shouldn't buy a dog from a pet store, or that pit bulls aren't killing machines, or how many of our neighbors don't spay or neuter (we've got a nice troop of "outside cats" in the subdivision now to prove it [:@].) But if I acted like a jerk to everybody and ranted at them for going to a pet store, rather than calmly explaining why it's a bad idea, they're just going to write me off and ignore me or get combative.

That said, I have noticed that some posters who do have "accidentally" pregnant dogs, or whatever the case may be, tend to flip when anyone makes a comment along the lines of "you should get your dog spayed you know", making me think that they partially are hoping for some kind of validation for stuff that they really shouldn't be doing.

Personally, I think there is a difference between being rude and having a difference of opinion. It seems here as soon as someone disagrees, people need to then defend themselves. Who said you have to defend yourself?? Who said you have to change anyones mind to your way of thinking

 
I wanted to say because my way of thinking is better (tongue-in-cheek) but some might not see it as humor and I haven't seen a smiley that quite matches the smart-aleck look I can give with a smart-aleck reply such as that. As someone who's words and meaning have been misinterpreted many times, I agree that we all have opinions. And many is the time when someone has expressed an opinion with the implication that you or I are simply deficient in understanding, knowledge, and/or thinking ability because we don't agree with them. And, having been accused directly or indirectly of being defensive or trying to change someone's thinking (of which I am sometimes, though not always, guilty) I think it's partly nature of the beast, a human "frailty." I think some would accuse me of implying deficient thinking on their part simply because I explain my thinking on my part. Hence, throwing my logical thinking back at me. Whether due to my adherence to logical thinking or my thick hide (or both), I'm not actually offended by that. But a new person, or a long time visitor who, say feeds something that others consider either trash or barely suitable for donation to a shelter is less likely to speak up for fear of condemnation or reprisal. As I've been told from the training set, +R works better than -R.
 
But, I agree, too, that we shouldn't coddle or support someone who is doing something patently wrong and if possible, we should find a firm yet instructive way to help them out of their problem. Example: if someone comes on wonders if they are doing right by rubbing their dog's nose in its mess, we could at least point out the non-abusive ways that are so much better.
 
OTOH, live and let live. We should strive to allow forgiveness to ourselves and others. I say that in spite of having been raised with GFBD.
 

I know I've had my say here already.  But one more point that I'd like to make is that it drives my absolutely crazy when I see posts describing whatever food it is as "crap", "garbage", phrases like "I wouldn't feed it". 

Also, I see a lot of generalizations about certain companies, Hill's is an example.  I see posts that say the first ingredient in SD is corn.  They have like 10 formulas and that statement is not true for all of them.  Or, I'll see where someone will post that a food has by-products or harmful preservatives.  And, I KNOW sometimes they are wrong.  I just don't like generalizations especially when they are wrong. 

I'm not defending Hill's or anything here just using them as an example.  I see a lot of misinformation stated as a fact to put down something someone is feeding. 

And, just one more point, sometimes I think things get taken a little too far.  By this I mean, it's always good to feed a healthy diet.  But, sometimes I read about people afraid to give a little ice cream or something because it contains dairy.  Come on. . .unless your dog has a problem they aren't going to become ill from a little treat.   Or, they act like corn is poison. It's over the top. 
 
 

I'm tickled with the point about milk. Technically, most dogs lack the lactase(?) to digest lactose, making them technically "lactose-intolerant". But Shadow will eat a piece of cheese. A dear friend, Tony (RIP) used to have a dog he called Strider. Anyway, he could not get through a fast food joint without getting a cheeseburger for him.

Yes, and I'm more tickled at how everyone feeds yogurt and that's not a problem. 

I think if you go back and research my posts on the breeding topic you'll find that it is usually ME who says, what's done is done, lets NOW help this person keep momma and the babies safe and healthy.  BUT, I'm sure not going to encourage someone who behaves in an irresponsible manner and then changes the story each and every time someone makes a good point about it, to SUE the other irresponsible party involved.......and, based on the info from ilovepitbulls, yep, I did strongly suggest a spay/abort.  The dog is too young to have to deal with whelping a litter AND the last thing that the world needs is a bunch more of poorly bred pitbulls.
 
Re: food....what the heck should we say if that is a food that WE would not feed??  A generic, gee, you can do better than Pedigree?  I dunno how else to say the stuff I want to say except to just SAY it....

Yes, the point of there are better foods out there can be made with much more tact than, "I wouldn't feed my dog that crap".  Sorry if anyone disagrees with me. 
 
I think lots of people are really open to feeding good foods they just don't know they are out there.  When Willow first came home we didn't have any dog food at all and I went out and got Iams because I thought that was a really good one.  I didn't even know about SD, that's how green I was.
 
Well, my friend, with the lab, he's a health nut and he's the one who told me about Innova and that's when I started learning about all the better foods. 
 
As soon as I knew I wanted to give her that instead.  But, he just showed the way, didn't make me feel like a low life for it. 
 
I think it's ironic that when the raw feeders around here get going, the people that feed the holistic kibbles don't like it but they also do the same type of thing to the new people who feed the lesser quality foods. 
 
I don't get that.

phrases like "I wouldn't feed it"

This is exactly how I would put my concern about a food.  I don't see why that should be a problem - that's exactly what I mean, "I wouldn't feed it."  That's the most tactful way I can think of to express, well, the fact that there's some foods I won't feed.  Doesn't mean or imply that I think less of people who feed foods I won't feed.  Good Heavens, I'm an independent "fundamentalist" Baptist but I don't have any problem with people who find other denominations suit their spiritual needs.  That's a WAY bigger deal than dog food choices.

Is is wrong to have a personal standard and express it, and a little apologeia for it?  I don't think that is rude, put-offish, or confrontational - I've certainly not noticed that being the case in Real Life, where I can judge instantly the effect my words have on my fellow conversationalists.  A little give and take is healthy, and might be instructional to lurkers.  This would be an awfully boring forum if it were restricted to simply saying, "I feed this" and "I feed that."  ZZZZZZZZZ

And there are some issues that reallly are important.  Breeding is an area that has a real impact on our society, which according to the sage, is judged by how we treat our animals. If we wink at breeding willy nilly for our convenience, entertainment, or personal gain, we'll be devaluing life overall.  I'll be polite to anyone falling under those motivations, but I won't molycoddle.  And if they persist in running afoul of my belief that life is precious and shouldn't be exploited, the glove will be on the ground.

This would be an awfully boring forum if it were restricted to simply saying, "I feed this" and "I feed that." ZZZZZZZZZ

OK, then why have a thread like this at all.  If the thought is that if we have to be argumentative, rude, confrontational and tactless in order for the forum to not put us to sleep. 

Personally, this really doesn't effect me.  And, I agree with you, I can't stand it when we are all nicing each other to death.  But, obviously for a lot of people it's an issue and it should be a "nice" forum. 

How is saying well, you can feed what you do, but I wouldn't feed it, being nice.  To me, it's saying I'm a much better dog owner than you because I don't let my dog eat that.  Right?? What other way is there to take it??  And, the threads are never going to stop turning into an argument when comments and words like these are used.  All it does it put the person on the defensive.  And, it's very easy to wonder how else it should be put or worded when it's not your method that's being criticized.  I've been told the way I feed isn't right.  I am 100% comfortable with how she's being fed now, so the comments don't bother me anymore.  But, at one time, they made me steaming mad.  Who are we to imply what kind of owner the person must be because they feed a certain thing? 

And frankly, if I came on here as an unknown person and stated saying how bad raw food was, etc, etc. the raw feeders would get upset.  Or, if I bad mouthed a holistic food, same thing.  It's easy to make comments and say, well how else should I say it, when it's not you that's being spoken to like that.

Why would it make anyone defensive if I say, "I don't feed anything with corn" for instance?  I'm not you.  You are not me.  I shouldn't have to apologize or soothe your feelings every time I have an opinion.  Opinions are not rude, nor is explanation, discussion, or even argument. 

Maybe I'd like to try to persuade you - there's nothing rude or demeaning in that either.  I'll wait for you to open the discussion - I'm not a raving proseletyzer.  But if I'm unsuccessful I'll never think any less of you if the conversation remained civil (though as a professional writer I might giggle quietly to myself at fallacious reasoning techniques - please note that's the only thing that ever gives me a giggle - I don't critique my friends' writing).

I've had my feeding methods criticized many times.  The last time I talked to my mentor and friend face to face, he as much as told me I was stupid for how I fed my dogs.  He got really personal about it, practically accused me of killing my dogs, etc.  I didn't think he was feeling well so I kept my breath to cool my porridge.  A couple days later he called me and apologized, and called every few days after that until he died about ten days later, so no harm was done.  If I had flared back and gotten defensive, it's possible that would have been the last conversation I ever had with him.

My husband and I attended several to get exposure to many different breeds/breeders, and to really determine whether we even wanted to get a dog.

 
Excellent thinking, regardless of your experience at the show. I wish more people would think really long and hard before getting a dog, let alone a breed with special needs, such as tons of exercise, whatever.
 
Shadow's original owner bought him Plano Pets & Grooming in Plano, Texas at Spring Creek Pkwy and Alma Rd., where they allow a bubba with a box o' pups to bring them in for sale. But, our friend didn't know any better and, I suppose, never received the education. She is from an extremely dysfunctional adoptive family. Her mother would put to sleep another one of her cats every time she got angry or spiteful. Shadow was next. So, to berate her would be useless and simply remind her of the abuse she has suffered, thus far. OTOH, "By the way, this is what I have learned about pet stores that sell puppies " and "If you're thinking about getting another dog, may I suggest or look up for you breeders" or my favorite and most common approach to getting an animal, "I saw your dog at the shelter, you just didn't know that, yet." I would even, if she were interested, drive her there and help pay the whopping $44 dollars for adoption, spay/neuter and first vacc. Or just stand on a street corner. A stray will wander along. A starving stray will love you forever for a little bit of food.