Royce gets neutered tomorrow morning.

AgileGSD

kpwlee

  He's had one and yes it could be related but it could also be flat out genetics.  Having hung out on boards focused on orthopedic issues and CCL issues the vast majority of afflicted dogs are intact, pure bred and of certain breeds.  Interestingly none of the breeds that appear over represented are ones that we 'think' are contributors (or significant ones) in his genetics.  Not wanting to thread jack but there are much more significant contributors to CCL injuries than early S/N  and yes i have seen research that says it is a possible factor

 

  That's interesting. I don't think I have never known an intact dog who had a CCL rupture (and I know LOTS of dogs who have). The majority of the dogs I have personally know are early alters.

Having a personal interest in the subject and having been an active member of subject-specific boards for the last 2.5 yrs I can assure you that intact male and female AKC show dogs are well represented. Over represented.  Worldwide.  Not in a little corner of the world.  I only personally know of one dog that has had a TPLO and he had two.  He was neutered at 2 yrs old and is the largest golden I have ever seen, same surgeon that we used and they are my neighbor, I mentioned it to the surgeon and he said that dog had the worst knees he'd ever seen.  Genetics. And the surgeon knows a lot more than any of us

AgileGSD

That's interesting. I don't think I have never known an intact dog who had a CCL rupture (and I know LOTS of dogs who have). The majority of the dogs I have personally know are early alters.

Slauterbeck study in 2004 indicates that 2.3% of intact dogs suffered CCL ruptures.  I personally knew an intact Brittany who had two.  Again, it's out of line to try and make someone feel bad about early spay/neuter when it is required by the shelter.  Time to take this thread back to it's point rather than trying to turn it into someone's personal agenda, IMO.

Cita

So, I appreciate hearing alternate points of view and all... but really, this isn't a "should I/shouldn't I" thread, so it's really not a good place to be pushing your own agenda. AgileGSD, if I were adopting a dog from a shelter where early S/N was required (as it usually is), I would find your posts pretty upsetting. After all, we're talking about people who aren't making that choice voluntarily - it's either S/N early, or no dog. It's really not fair to harp on the dangers of early S/N to people who care about their dogs and don't have any choice in the matter. If you really want to prove your point, take it up with the shelter managers.

  I said that it was a shame they were making her alter him so young. Others brought up that early altering was no big deal and I disagreed. I do hope Royce never has issues associated with it though.

kpwlee

Having a personal interest in the subject and having been an active member of subject-specific boards for the last 2.5 yrs I can assure you that intact male and female AKC show dogs are well represented. Over represented.  Worldwide.  Not in a little corner of the world.  I only personally know of one dog that has had a TPLO and he had two.  He was neutered at 2 yrs old and is the largest golden I have ever seen, same surgeon that we used and they are my neighbor, I mentioned it to the surgeon and he said that dog had the worst knees he'd ever seen.  Genetics. And the surgeon knows a lot more than any of us

 

 Not sure what being an "AKC show dog" has to do with it. There definitely are breeds more prone to such injuries but I have known dogs of all sizes and breeds or mixes who have it. Many were early alters, some were later but off the top of my head I can't think of any adult intact dogs that I have personally known. I knew a still intact Grey puppy who had a partial tear but that was pretty unusual.

 Edit: 2.3% seems pretty low. What was the percentage of altered dogs? Feel free to PM me the info :)

AgileGSD

 Not sure what being an "AKC show dog" has to do with it.

AgileGSD

off the top of my head I can't think of any adult intact dogs that I have personally known.

FWIW I think its a shame that every thread that comes up with someone only wanting well wishes for a spay/neuter surgery to go smoothly you always jump in with negativity and come down on them for doing what needs to be done or what they want to be done.  It really isn't your call for any dog but your own. All dogs have health risks some specific to being intact and others more prevalent in S/N dogs.  That's life

Please start a discussion in health if you want to keep going back and forth about CCL's and other health issues.  Someone's thread about their pup having a MANDATORY neuter isn't the place to espouse your thoughts on the damage it might or might not cause

Thanks for the thought-provoking info, everyone, and I am glad to see not everyone feels Royce will be doomed to a life of cancers and injuries because of this completely involuntary move to have him fixed.  AgileGSD, I do understand your POV completely and am not inclined to totally disagree, but I will not and cannot believe that I can't raise a healthy dog with proper physical conditioning and good nutrition. I think of it like this. Every HUMAN is dealt a hand in life that may set them up for future health issues... early injury, a family history of cancer, etc. But there are so many things we can do to minimize the risks of this and counter-act them as well. Nobody just shakes their head and writes off their own fate because of particular circumstance, and I'm not going to do that to my puppy. I am not going to let myself feel scared or guilty about it. It is what it is, and I'm okay with that.

Agile, I'm definitely NOT trying to stifle your opinion or hide from a different point of view, but I just follow rules. I cannot change them currently.

FWIW, I know a spayed female mix who needed two cruciate ligament surgeries. She was the oddball exception for that surgeon.... He usually worked on working male intact GSDs.

ETA: And Agile, we all know you would never wish bad on little Royce :)

Beejou

FWIW, I know a spayed female mix who needed two cruciate ligament surgeries. She was the oddball exception for that surgeon.... He usually worked on working male intact GSDs.

I have an intact male GSD with an injury we are trying to diagnose and CCL injury is unfortunately a possibility.  Again, we don't know yet, but it's definitely among the top of the list of things to consider, and the dog is intact FWIW.

Lies I'm sorry :( Is that Nikon? Fingers crossed it isn't something that serious!

Liesje

I have an intact male GSD with an injury we are trying to diagnose and CCL injury is unfortunately a possibility.  Again, we don't know yet, but it's definitely among the top of the list of things to consider, and the dog is intact FWIW.

I remembered a bit ago that my friend's intact male lab age 6.5  had CCL repair at age 3

kpwlee

Liesje

I have an intact male GSD with an injury we are trying to diagnose and CCL injury is unfortunately a possibility.  Again, we don't know yet, but it's definitely among the top of the list of things to consider, and the dog is intact FWIW.

oh no!!!

He actually has another injury (unrelated) to his foot and I have to wait for that to heal before checking on the knee problem.  Right now I can't tell which one is causing the limp.  My hope is that the limp and clicking are being caused by him favoring a leg b/c of the foot, but deep down I don't really think that's the case.   Either way, the foot problem is definitely causing some lameness (when it gets bad he just won't put pressure on it, and I can tell the foot is the cause because it is raw and will be bleeding when he refuses to walk), and is more painful right now, so he's not actively training or exercising anyway.  Once the foot heals, we'll see if the other symptoms are still there.

 aw Lies I am so sorry and I am hoping that it is the foot that is aggravating things - just as a FYI a GOOD surgeon can tell via xray if there is CCL problems - it will show fluid accumulation in certain areas.  Bugsy's drawer test was inconclusive but he had a clear area of fluid in the knee which did turn out to be a tear

Sending our best - its his foot injury - vibes!

I might be PMing you in a few weeks if this is still an issue.  His foot is still very raw so it will be a while before that is taken care of.  That was initially infected so it is much more of a concern to me.  To be honest I'm not even 100% sure it's the knee that's the other problem.  I hear a clicking sound from the rear, could be a hip too?  I don't know.  I'm trying not to worry since he *wants* to run hard, do bitework, go on long walks, etc.  When he goes lame on the right rear leg is when the tissue on the foot got bothered again.  Whatever is "clicking" could be the cause of some of the limp but so far not the lameness he's had once or twice (before the infection was treated).  I know these are separate injuries because he was "clicking" before he tore the claw, that happened right before I left for FL.  I believe it happened when he tripped over Pan and later that night he was very reluctant to sit (he'd try to sit and then pop back up and just stand there).  I told DH not to do any real exercise with him and let him rest.  When I got home I found blood in the house and the torn claw, we have been focusing on that.

Anyway, sorry for the derailment!  I hope Royce is doing OK.

No need to apologize, I'm wondering about poor Nikon too. And Royce is doing awesome! I almost forgot to give him a pain pill because he is so happy and bouncy (I did to be sure the pain doesn't creep in)