Ethically breeding mutts

I think that the pet population problem IS a very reasonable reason to avoid doing or supporting a venture like this.

 It is a reasonable reason. But I mean besides the pet population why wouldn't you do it?  If the pet population was the only reason, people wouldn't support pure bred breeders either.

You know....   I can answer this 2 ways.

the "ethical" Shammy answer:  Nobody has any business breeding mutts. If you look hard enough, you can find a purebred that meets the cuteness or functionality of a designer mutt.  Labradoodle:  PWD,  Peekapoo: Havanese, etc.

The open minded Shammy answer:  If you did Cerf (eye), hip, elbows, certain genetic diseases for your breed(s) of choice and bred the litters, screened homes, required the same spay/neuter contract and take-back clause that show breeders did, why not?  It would seem a person who did this would not over-breed her girls either.  (Trust me, there are some purebred show people who over breed their girls for years on end and pump out waaay too many dogs).

I did fancy having a boy poodle, and the 3 girls... yorkie, shih tzu, bichon, for just such a purpose- ethically raised, health certified, mixes (this was before the designer craze and before I got into showing/breeding bichons and toy poodles). 

I do not choose the latter because I'm afraid I'd be outed by the listers and be hated and such because someone else thinks it's "wrong."

And have you ever seen a "shih-chon"  OMG the cutest, rolliest poliest cuteness ever, especially the parti colors!

Absolutely not, no I would never breed or buy.  Why?  The answer is in your question..."Find the best match..."  You cannot find the best match when you don't have generations of information behind the dog, and information on what the dog already produces on a consistent basis. Can't do that when breeding a mutt or crossing two totally different breeds.  I'm a big supporter of line breeding when done correctly and that is not possible when breeding mutts and crossing breeds.  There's just absolutely no way to accurately predict what is going to be produced, and what those puppies could produce.  Therefore, you can't really set goals for the puppies/litter, can't really properly screen prospective owners.  For me temperament is my number one priority and temperament is controlled by genetics but when you start doing such drastic mixes and outcrosses that changes everything.  I see absolutely no reason TO do it.  People spend a lifetime trying to make some headway breeding within certain lines within a certain type within a certain breed, I can't imagine what advantage there could possible be to throwing all that out the window and basically mixing at random.

There is also the background of the health and temperments of the lines involved.  Rather obviously, with a mutt, your lineage stops in a giant ??? at some point, and I would rather know the health, the temperment, the predisposition to genetic problems before I bring a pup home.

oranges81

 It is a reasonable reason. But I mean besides the pet population why wouldn't you do it?  If the pet population was the only reason, people wouldn't support pure bred breeders either.

Disclaimer so no one is offended by what I post. I have owned mixed breed dogs...nice ones, and not so nice ones. Healthy ones and not so healthy ones. I have nothing against the concept or existance of mongrels or random bred dogs.

Now. One word. Predictability.

You, my hypothetical lady, lol! would NEVER EVER know...what your litter would produce...size, temperament, coat, health, instincts, anything. If you COULD predict..then within a couple of generations, you would likely either have a new breed or be back at the root with a dog very close to whatever purebred you started with.

You could hazard a guess that because momma puddles has spots and daddy clyde has spots...the puppies would too...but what COLOR would the spots be? Do you know clyde's daddy or mommy? do you know puddles's? You'd basically be giving me your best guess as to what the puppy you put in my hands, would be like.

Some people LOVE that. I however, do not. I live a certain kind of life, with certain things within it that are important to me. I do not want a feisty nippy aggro dog...for ex. How do YOU know that clyde father or granfather was not of terrier extraction? Things skip generations you know. I do not want a dog with a streak towards maiming small animals, disliking chidlren, or laying on top of me at every opportunity.

If as I say you started keeping pedigrees on your random breds, by definition they would not be random bred within a very short timeframe eh? Catch 22.

So I put to you, how WOULD you breed a mongrel purposefully and randomly and still keep it a mongrel? What would be the point? If people want a mere pet that is good at being a pet...shelter's abound with those. What would separate YOUR mongrels from those or make them "better"...marketing? gimmicks? because there'd be little else of substance really. You would have to continually breed random to random and even doing health testing...you would need to keep SOME sort of record of what worked and what didn't and people would likely come to like a "certain mix" from you and well, there you'd be...back at pedigrees and breeding for a certain type. LOL.

PREDICTABILITY.

glenmar

There is also the background of the health and temperments of the lines involved.  Rather obviously, with a mutt, your lineage stops in a giant ??? at some point, and I would rather know the health, the temperment, the predisposition to genetic problems before I bring a pup home.

Plus, these things to not "interact" the same way across breeds.  The genetics within each breed are unique and complicated.

The problem is, the number of dogs in shelters can vary widely all over the US and Canada (and the world).  BUT at the same time -- trying to "govern" what you're talking about is nigh onto impossible. 

1.  There are areas of the country where small dogs are at a premium -- they are next to impossible to FIND in a shelter in those areas.  Where small dogs are at a premium, large dogs are a toss-away (and particularly with all the breed-banning stuff). 

So is it right to "breed" small dogs and kill big ones?  Where is the morality in that? 

2.  Often people who will take mixes are 100% clueless about breed tendencies ... and when you get a mix you get even less control over that -- soooo where does the cute friendliness of a bichon (along with the difficulty in housetraining them) then mix with the intelligence and sometimes-cunning of a poodle?  How do you have a clue what you'll have and what people will make a good match?  Breeding "mutts" is going to be a complete crap-shoot to be honest. 

Frankly I don't think you'd have enough control over the people wanting them to make it intelligent.  The 'value' just isn't going to be there -- and people won't pay to make the "breeder" able TO do the testing, etc. -- and how much testing would you need???  ALL the testing for both/all breeds?? That could get really unweildy really quick.

3.  You then dilute rescue efforts elsewhere -- I they could just take some of the abundance of small dogs in Texas and get them to Florida some of them could be placed because it's darned near impossible to FIND a small dog in Florida.  Until you get to Miami and then you get the same Texas problem -- but no one wants to go to the expense of even going to Miami FOR a dog, much less further afield.

I understand what you're saying but it's a logistical nightmare -- and who will pay the price?  The dogs left in kennels at the pound because they 'aren't' among the favored few.  They'll get euth'd -- all the more if someone is trying to 'sell' supposedly superior mutts.

 Interesting. But what about someone setting out to start a new breed?

And no I'm planning on breeding mutts. Lol. both my dogs are spayed

Liesje

Absolutely not, no I would never breed or buy.  Why?  The answer is in your question..."Find the best match..."  You cannot find the best match when you don't have generations of information behind the dog, and information on what the dog already produces on a consistent basis. Can't do that when breeding a mutt or crossing two totally different breeds.  I'm a big supporter of line breeding when done correctly and that is not possible when breeding mutts and crossing breeds.  There's just absolutely no way to accurately predict what is going to be produced, and what those puppies could produce.  Therefore, you can't really set goals for the puppies/litter, can't really properly screen prospective owners.  For me temperament is my number one priority and temperament is controlled by genetics but when you start doing such drastic mixes and outcrosses that changes everything.  I see absolutely no reason TO do it.  People spend a lifetime trying to make some headway breeding within certain lines within a certain type within a certain breed, I can't imagine what advantage there could possible be to throwing all that out the window and basically mixing at random.

What she said, doubled.

 My dogs are hunting dogs.  Hunters tend to want purebreds because the behaviors are more predictable and form follows function.  The purebred tend to do a better job. That being said, there are hunting crossbreeds(mutts) that I would consider.  As I don't trial or show dogs, the papers aren't that important, if both parents were descent hunters.

I won't breed dogs.  It is hard work and expensive to do it properly.  I notice that people who do it properly seem to have few problems selling pups.  Even the people who do it poorly seem to sell lots of pups

Breeding dogs for temperament , health, and cuteness as pets for people who want a pet only dog seems to work well for some judging from the ads I see ($800 for a Maltipoo). Of course, you are now starting a new breed.

I've seen article talking about importing strays from other countries and from state to state.  We may need to reassess  the scope of the population problem.

There were 10 replies made while I was writing mine .

oranges81

 Interesting. But what about someone setting out to start a new breed?

wanting to start a new BREED is an utterly different gambit that wanting to breed a random bred dog to another random bred, or cross breed. You reaaally need to read the article the creator of the Labradoodle wrote recently Kitty, seriously. It's very enlightening, he's BEEN there, and DONE that. And he moved on and is still shaking his head about what he hath wrought.

I can tell you this also...99% of people in this world today would not have the cajones required, to start a new breed. It is a BRUTAL process requiring SERIOUS culling and absolute resolve and dedication to keep ONLY the best and be ruthless about the control you have over your programme. It is not fun and games...it is serious, serious god-like work. Could YOU euthanize a puppy or ten because the feature or ability you wanted to set did not occur in that breeding? or breed a mother to her son or sister to brother, and hope for the best?

You (general) think the amount of people out there willing to be homes for the pups and dogs that don't come up to snuff is inexhaustible when there's so many in competition for homes? You think you have the space and time needed to manage a kennel FULL of breeding bitches dogs, sons, daughters and grandparents so you can view your lifes work at EVERY lifestage?

The single reason very few of these designer dogs and attempts at new breeds, even those as antiquated as the cockapoo have made no progress is BECAUSE of the inability to be THAT ruthless and focused on the goal. IMO I am glad of it. Creating new breeds shouldn't be some lighthearted process. It is life and death, usually for many. Our forefathers that brought us the breeds we had today were hard men and women and saw their dogs as much as livestock as anything else, they usually were meant for a purpose and meant to look a certain way and those that did not...well...

Could you imagine trying to create a breed NOW with PeTA around every corner and people ready to call you a "mill" as soon as you have more than 2-3 bitches?? *eyeroll*

Giving Gina and Lies both a standing ovation for their posts.

rwbeagles

oranges81

 Interesting. But what about someone setting out to start a new breed?

 wanting to start a new BREED is an utterly different gambit that wanting to breed a random bred dog to another random bred, or cross breed. You reaaally need to read the article the creator of the Labradoodle wrote recently Kitty, seriously. It's very enlightening, he's BEEN there, and DONE that. And he moved on and is still shaking his head about what he hath wrought.

I read that article. Actually, that's what got me thinking about this issue. Lol.