Ethically breeding mutts

I think breeding and selling mutts is different than creating a new breed.  Creating a new breed often involves a substantial amount of line-breeding and even some in-breeding.  Someone with enough knowledge and experience to pull that off successfully might as well use their talents on an existing breed.  Also I'm guessing that creating a new breed and being very serious about it is going to involve culling on a much larger scale than we currently find with most existing breeds.  There's going to be a certain amount of failure built in.  The first few generations would not be producing dogs that are intended to be sold as pets or for some pre-determined purpose.

 So really the main reason not to breed mutts is the lack of predictability in the pups.  If (hypothetically) there was a way to predict the way the pups would turn out, what then?  But that goes back into the pure breeds then and the predictability in those lines.

When you think about thou, didn't all breeds start as mutts? That were just fine tuned to be what they are now. 

 I have to ask why are you breeding?  (And I know you aren't planning on doing this, general "you" being used. :)

 When you breed purebred dogs, the question should be asked, "What am I improving?"  Take stock of your bitch and then look for a stud that compliments her and "fixes" the problems.  Bigger ears? More back length? Softer/harder temperament? More natural instinct (birdiness in Weims, for example)  .... what do I want to change, how can I improve my dogs?

 So if you are breeding "mutts" what are you trying to improve?  Great, the parents have been health tested, temperaments must be fine.... all pups on a speuter contract, at which point you have to wonder why you're breeding.  If none of these pups are going to be bred and must be spayed/neutered then how am I progressing or making something better?  Effectively you have made a few more pets, which is important, but can be attained from many other sources. 

 Then as others have suggested you have the consistency issue.... lots of things are polygenic, hips and bites, for example.  So, just because each parent is healthy the pups have a huge amount of genetic material to pull from, you could end easily end up with health problems.  I think consistency has been thoroughly covered :)

 DougB talks about hunting dogs being crossed, and you ask about creating a new breed.  Again, that comes back to "what am I trying to improve".... as Doug points out, to create better hunting dogs.  You may cross the range of Brittany and the coat of a Poodle and you want the point of a Pointer..... you have a goal, a direction, which is the foundation of a breed, IMO.

 I think it all comes back to "What am I trying to improve?" 

Interesting topic! :)

  Purposely bred mixes are extremely popular in the flyball community. The team currently holding the flyball record is made up of entirely Border Collie x Staffordshire Bull Terrier mixes, which were bred for the sport. I believe the two fastest singles times are also sport bred mixes. These mixes are in high demand in the flyball community and are generally out of accomplished, health tested parents. The most common are Border Collie x Jack Russell (Borderjack), Borderstaffy, Border x Whippet, Staffordshire Terrier x Jack Russell. People are selecting them for drive, stamina, trainability, size and speed. It would seem from the results that people are getting what they want from them.

 Work bred mixed breeds have been around forever. Lurchers (sighthound crosses) are very desired by some for hunting. There are certainly plenty of farmers who prefer a certain mix of herding breeds for their purposes as opposed to a purebred. Some like pit bull crosses for "hog dogs". Purposely bred mixes aren't unheard of for protection work either. And of course there is the Alaskan Husky.

 On the pet side, there are people who are breeding Doodles that are doing the health testing and do care about temperament. There are some service dog orgs who like Doodles for work (and also Lab/Golden crosses). A Doodle wouldn't be my choice for a dog but to each their own I guess. Now if you started just randomly breeding mixed breeds to other mixed breeds to other mixed breeds, you'd likely end up with pariah type dogs after so many generations.

oranges81

 So really the main reason not to breed mutts is the lack of predictability in the pups.  If (hypothetically) there was a way to predict the way the pups would turn out, what then?  But that goes back into the pure breeds then and the predictability in those lines.

But you can't, so it's almost not even worth asking, you know?  Like if German Shepherds didn't shed and came in all sizes and colors and had perfect temperaments and perfect health why wouldn't we all own only GSDs?  Almost not worth asking, lol.  

If we could with certainty predict health and temperament across breeds then we wouldn't really need breeds, I guess.

But they didn't end there, Kitty. You cannot predict what is unknown. And once you know and document, you are no longer breeding the unknown...

Those first archetypical dog "types" took many times decades up to hundreds of years to perfect. What possible good would come from starting that again? IMO much more can be gained from studying the dog...it's genetics, it's mind, etc to make the lives of dogs as domestic man made creatures...better. We owe them that. We do not, IMO owe them still MORE tinkering with said genetics "just to see what happens".

A mongrel breeding is the absence of human interference. Once a human interferes either to stop it, encourage it, or direct to another partner for a different outcome...then you are back to where dogs began. But they did not stay there, nor do most of us see the value of going backwards. Dogs lived a shorter lifespan, and were treated abominably by today's standards, abck then too.

Why look to that as a model for the future?

 The dog is treated better now a days but there are also many more health problems from specific breedings. So in many ways they're worse off as well.  Kinda a catch 22

I should add here, as an addendum to my prior comments that I am not interested in breeding ever again. I bred 4 bichon and 1 toy poodle litters and I was a nervous wreck the whole time.

FIrst, you worry if the pregnancy will take, then, once pregnant, will everything go ok, will she free whelp or need a c/section?  Then you have to worry if the newborns will survive.  Then you have to start screening homes and answering all the questions.  Sometimes you get a few idiots on the phone. Ugh. Then you worry if anyone else can care for them as good as you can.  Will they end up dumping the dog somewhere (even with the contract stipulating I get th dog back) if it doesn't housebreak or they don't bother to have it groomed (I've done plenty of those once a year matted mess grooms). 

NOw... would I like to have a well bred black/white particolor shih-chon?  OMG, heck ya! LOL but not breed.

 Yes all breeds started somewhere but I personally am uncomfortable with the extreme degree of culling and/or line breeding required to create a breed like, say, a German Shepherd.  I'm glad it was done, but I could never do it, no.

 Me neither. I could never be tough enough to cull a puppy just cuz it didn't suit my needs.

My future boy will be a possible stud dog, depending on how he grows up. He'll already be in a breeding program so I don't need to worry about that stuff. Lol. 

oranges81

 The dog is treated better now a days but there are also many more health problems from specific breedings. So in many ways they're worse off as well.  Kinda a catch 22

Genes get passed, they don't just show up out of the blue. Generations of breeding from what dog looks, hunts, or works like without genetic testing is why we "have problems"...that we can SEE inside a dog now, even up to the genetic level is IMO a MUCH better place to be. You couldn't PAY me to breed dogs 30-50 years ago when it was just "well he looks alright". *shudders* 

IMO there are not MORE health problems now...there are MORE dogs, more dogs put into pet homes, more people owning dogs, better vet care, and better diagnostic tools. More people doing LESS breeding using FEWER dogs because we are not "allowed" to utilize the kennel or "view dogs as a business" anymore. The "new age" way of viewing dogs,  has done much to help dogs...but also has hamstrung the ability of a breeder to do the breedings necessary to ensure genetic diversity and ferret out problems and eradicate them as necessary. 

Just like there are not MORE people born with autism now...the band of diagnosis has simply expanded to encompass well, just about ANYONE.

shamrockmommy

shih-chon

Shih Tzu/Bichon? 

 My first thought of when I saw this title was along the lines of Lurchers.  I don't have as much a problem with mixing of breeds if there is a purpose to the madness, though then again I can't help but see the glaring deficiencies that dogs have been left with in that search for creating the pure breeds of today.  I guess rather than say what I think people should or should not do with their dogs, I make my choice in who I purchase from.

Krissim Klaw

I can't help but see the glaring deficiencies that dogs have been left with in that search for creating the pure breeds of today. 

I think this is a fair point, but honestly, I think someone who is an experienced, knowledgeable breeder can be successful breeding correct, healthy purebreds and probably get what they might be looking for breeding mutts.  A crappy breeder is not all the sudden going to get fabulous dogs by switching to mutts.  I don't really buy into the idea of hybrid vigor or that doing random outcrosses and mixed breedings are just *better* simply because.  The breeding is only as good as the knowledge and experience behind it.

Liesje

Krissim Klaw

I can't help but see the glaring deficiencies that dogs have been left with in that search for creating the pure breeds of today. 

 

I think this is a fair point, but honestly, I think someone who is an experienced, knowledgeable breeder can be successful breeding correct, healthy purebreds and probably get what they might be looking for breeding mutts.  A crappy breeder is not all the sudden going to get fabulous dogs by switching to mutts.  I don't really buy into the idea of hybrid vigor or that doing random outcrosses and mixed breedings are just *better* simply because.  The breeding is only as good as the knowledge and experience behind it.

I don't think purebreds should being static either, although sometimes I get the impression that is what some breeders are looking for.  There are good breeders looking to improve their breeds, though sometimes I can't help but think they might be missing out on some great possibilities because they only pick from the shallow pool of their breed that currently exists. Things were a lot looser back when these breeds were being created and it wasn't unusual to pull from outside dogs to help get in new genes and pull traits that could be beneficial.