Breeding

 I'd be quite suspicious of the male dog's owner's story myself.  What health testing and performance titles has the dog earned?

What does your son hope to accomplish with this litter?  What are his goals for the litter?  What is he looking to improve on by using this male?

:::popping the popcorn now:::

*holds out a small bowl for popcorn*

How many homes are line up for the litter? Will the people who purchase one of these adorable puppies have to sign a contract? Will they have to spayed/neutered? Will he take back each and every puppy before allowing it to go to a shelter? Will he investigate or check into who is buying any of the puppies?

What has his dog accomplished? Is she a champion? Herder? Rally? Schutzhund? Obedience?

he is planning on keepin a pup for his son, (the dog actually ended up being more his duahgter she follows her everwhere even to the bathroom doot when she is in) and since mine is getting so old and not expecting hiim to last very much longer I was going to keep one. He liked this dog when he was told of it he is mostly black and beautiful markings. other than the "toes" they are really prominent and noticeable. he was goin to have the puppies reg as well. and what monies come out of selling them are going for his kids.the owner of the male is just getting one of the pups

I will be very frank.

Beautiful markings do not make the dog, it is in no way, shape or form, a valid reason to bred a dog. Not any, ever.

http://community.dog.com/forums/t/107896.aspx  This link will be helpful.

Personally, having been a breeder, doing it the right way (showing dogs, health testing[ofa, cerf, etc], screening puppy homes, following up on spay/neuter contracts) nobody has any business breeding dogs unless they are willing to do it RIGHT. 

Just because you have a female dog who is pretty or has a nice personality does not mean it should be bred. 

And, as a puppy 'buyer' myself, the only way I will get a puppy is from a breeder who does health testing, shows dogs, screens homes and places pups on a contract.  That or adopt from the shelter, which I have a purebred toy poodle and cat from years past.

Welcome to the board.  Do you have any pictures of your dog or your son's dog?  We love pictures here.

Are you familiar with the health testing available nowadays to minimize the changes of genetic illness/future disability?  You might be interested in googling terms like OFA, PennHip, Cerf.  It can really save you money in future vet bills to breed the healthiest dogs you can.

Wondering ... what the folks above are trying to help you realize is that unless a dog is truly show quality AND a winnder, then it's truly likely the dog ought not be bred at all.

German shepherds are FULL of breed-related health issues -- not just temperament problems, but potentially fatal things like DM, skeletal issues, etc. 

Most of the folks that are regulars here tend to work in rescue a lot.  And essentially a lot of us clean up the messes that casual (often known as "backyard breeders";) breeders make inadvertently.  Your son might be responsible with his, you might be responsible with yours -- but the others?? They are just more poorly bred dogs that will likely breed more dogs with health/temperament issues that will likely get put to sleep in shelters.

Not trying to jump on you -- but just as an example, if you click on my name and then go to my photos, just look at the wonderful (i.e.,  terrible, horrible, graphic, monstrous) pictures of my pug Tinkerbell when we adopted her.  Someone bought her to breed her to their male -- and "oops" -- she had demodectic mange (yet another breed-related, potentially fatal problem). 

But if you look at those pictures ... knowing that my husband and I brought her thru that (at great expense I might add) it will help you understand why some of us become very passionate about trying to discourage people from casually breeding (i.e., breeding where the dogs haven't been certified genetically, not show quality, not TESTED for health issues).

Extra toes can simply be the tip of the iceberg -- you need to find out if these dogs *BOTH OF THEM* have DM in their lineage, hip dysplasia, etc. 

Maybe you don't know what DM is???  FIND OUT **pretty please**. 

 Please don't take this as me being mean ... please simply take this as a challenge to learn more ok??

Breeding is a big responsibility.  I know you didn't ask us about that but we are all huge dog lovers and many of us are involved in rescue or work with shelters.   We see and hear about too many unwanted dogs (even purebred) that end up euthanized that it's hard for us to encourage the inexperienced person to breed.  Especially without health testing being done to try and eliminate some of the known problems in some breeds.

Please do some research about the breed before you encourage your son to breed his dog.  Also do some research on breeding dogs.  It's not always as easy as it seems.  It can get very expensive if things don't go well and there are expenses for the puppies too.   Think of each puppy as a life that you (your son in this case) is responsible for bringing into this world.  

As Truly said, a dog's looks are just a part of what makes a dog worth breeding.  Please take the time and effort to do some research on your son's behalf and educate yourselves before you make the decision to breed.

Thanks to Callie for your very nice post. I am a bit steamed on this subject as yesterday the neighbor who has a pit/boxer mix girl, 5 yrs old, wanted to breed her to the other neighbor's chow/lab/rott mix male.  I mean, seriously?!

I was looking for a fluffy retrieverish pup before I found Echo and the shelters here are full of these mixes.  Neighbor got an earful and as far as I know they didn't breed them.  So my feathers are in a fluffle at the moment.

Perhaps your son can find a mentor in the breed, someone who shows/works thier dogs and would have experiece evaluating his girl.  Sorry about my snark earlier, it just makes a girl so weary.

As an owner of a purebred dog (not a GSD, but none-the-less) this is what I look for in a breeder:

1. Papers documenting the bitches and sires health and health records going back in generations for both lines. This includes things like eye health, hips, etc and in the case of my dog's breed cancer incidences (if any).

2. What titles has the bitch and sire earned? I will not buy a dog from a breeder who isn't involved in work or show.

3. How old is the bitch and sire. I get very wary of anyone breeding young (under 2 years of age) dogs.

4. Where and how will these dogs be raised? In a home, kennel, outdoors...is the area safe and clean? Will the dogs be exposed to different people/situations? How old will they be when they are able to go home (I prefer a breeder to say 10 weeks of age at minimum). 

5. What food are they being fed?

6. What questions did the breeder ask of me? Yes, this may sound odd, but I want a breeder to question me about my home, plans for the dog, my expectations, etc. A good breeder is interested in placing the right pup with the right home.

7. The breeder will take back the dog for any reason (not that this is an option for me, but it demonstrates they care for their pups after they leave their house. Also, in case of life altering situations, it is nice to know that my dog will never be homeless.

Ari's "price tag" may have seemed up there, but I doubt highly that my breeder made any profit on her litter. Between the amount of showing/traveling she does, the vet care her dogs and the litter received, the quality food, etc - maybe she broke even. Any profit she may have made, I know will very likely be going right back into her love for the breed in terms of showing and perhaps down the line breeding another good litter to continually improve Ari's breed.

I really recommend becoming involved in the breed, outside of breeding, first. Join a breed club, meet with others. Go to shows and talk to other breeders. There's a lot involved in breeding right. There can be a lot of heartbreak involved in breeding as well, complicated births, lost puppies and the potential of losing the bitch as well. A complicated pregnancy can cost a lot of time, money and vet attention. Be prepared for the absolute worst and if your not willing to provide the care and money for the worst, please don't breed.

wondering owner

My son has a female german shepard, he is trying to fing a male to breed her with. a friend of hiis has a male and said that his dog came from germany and doesnt know how to get a copy of his papers, the original ones where lost in a fire. We seen the dog yesterday and  something caught my eye, the dog had 2 extra toes on the side of the left foot and one on the right foot. I have heard that if they have extra toes like that it is usually a sign of being inbred. Is this true??? I really want to find out before he breeds her with this dog. thanks

I have never seen a GSD with extra toes or heard anything about that being indicative of inbreeding.  Not all inbreeding and linebreeding is bad, either.  I have heard of rear dewclaws but haven't seen them myself as they either aren't born with them or they are removed right away.

Please think long and hard before you become a breeder.  I have a good friend who breeds top quality GSDs from Europe and flies to Europe routinely for training, showing, and breeding to European males and even with such quality dogs, having decades of experience, and a husband who is a vet, things can go wrong quickly.  Recently one of her females was bleeding and she drove her 5 hours in the middle of the night to a reproductive dog vet in another state.  Are you prepared for that?  What about if the bitch needs a C-section?  Do you have a reputable reproductive vet lined up? Do you know how to feed and care for a pregnant bitch and the pups, especially if the bitch does not produce milk?  Do you know how to avoid mastitis or what to do if it happens?  Do you know how to setup a whelping box appropriate for this breed?  I've heard of multiple litters lately that had fatalities because the owners did not know how to setup a whelping box and the dogs basically suffocated or crushed each other.  Also there are considerations for the breeding itself.  The female will need to be a certain age to ensure physical and mental maturity, tested clear of HD and ED at the very least, and test negative for brucellosis (same for the male!!).  If she has never been bred before and neither has the male, you'll need someone experienced on hand.  The bitch may not be receptive and may need to be restrained or muzzled, you need to know how to do this safely and also how to control the dogs during the tie so they don't injure themselves.  I've seen a very experienced brood bitch for whatever reason not be receptive to a male and require a basket muzzle.  This is not something where you just turn out the dogs in the yard and sip lemonade while they go at it.

If you don't have the males papers, you cannot register the puppies.  There is no way around that.

There are hundreds of beautiful male GSDs in the world currently available for stud.  These dogs have proven progeny, are experienced studs, have top show titles, working titles, all health clearances.  Why sell your female short and breed her to a pet with no papers, no titles or health clearances, and physical deformities?

 I am not an expert on GSD's, know a bit about dogs, and a little bit about genetics.  My dog is a purebred English Springer field bred dog, from excellent lines (stud competed well in field trials) and I chose to have Piper spayed to avoid having little ESS's running around my house.  It's a lot of work, money will be spent (shots, birthing, check ups, dew claws) with a possibility that extra pups will wind up in rescue.  It is a real responsibility.  You said the possible stud has extra toes.  Why would you chose a stud that shows a genetic flaw.?  I am not against breeding dogs, but would think you would have better luck placing pups with a good healthy back ground.  Not all animals from Germany are well bred.  It's not that easy to get excellent puppies even with well bred parents, and he should have a back up plan for any left over pups that doesn't involve placement with a rescue or euthanasia.

When breeding blind in a total outcross (high likelihood the dogs are from totally unrelated lines) you have no idea what will show up in the pups.  This includes structure of the skeleton, overall body type (heavy boned, big and tall; or sliglht and small) color and temparment).  Many gsd end up in rescue/pounds or less than idea living conditions because the folks that purchased them were not up to dealing with the dog (guardness, territorial defense).  Fear aggression is not unheard of in GSD.

I made the mistake of purchasing just such a GSD from such a breeding.... I loved that dog but he was a medical mess and had big time behavior/fear/"emotional" problems.   He had hip displasia on the left side.  He had spina bifida and surgery to address this deformaty on his spine at 7 months old (never trusted a stranger again in his life).  He had an undescended testicle (the cord was less than an inch long and the teste was actually laying up close to the spine.  Then there were the inhalant allergies and lupus.

 Over the course of his life time I spent at least 4.000 to provide his medical treatment.  I have been blessed and was able to do so.  There was many a time when my vet looked and me and said,  "You know Maryanne, had this been anyone else's dog, he would have been euthanized years ago."

 Do you really want to do that to puppy buyers?