Breeding

 I'm going to go at this from a different angle. I assume that your son's dog is a much loved member of the family? Yes? Then I'm going to recount my last year of experience with breeding. My dogs are my pets first, my show dogs second, and the future of my kennel/show dogs 3rd (NOTE I said I was going at this from a different angle). Their health/happiness is my first priority ABOVE ANY of my wants/goals. Why? Because I am their owner/caretaker and I make the decisions that affect their health - not them. It is a heavy responsibility. My experience is mild compared to some of the experiences I know other people have gone through where they lost the mom and the puppies.

I have shown dogs for several years now and have been planning my first litter for 3+ years. When I bred Piper last May everything was fine until the final xray showed no puppies. Two days later I found out why - she had lost the litter and her body was now trying to get rid of the puppies. If I had not acted fast and just 'trusted' my vet, I would have lost her. She developed an infection that required a specialist to save her (and her uterus) - which equates to lots of money. I had many days/nights of anguished decision making of whether spaying was best for her or to try for another litter. You have to understand - I have wanted a puppy from this girl for YEARS. The fact that I even had a chance at it now was a huge gift. BUT, Piper's health was more important than my wants. It was only after multiple talks with my mentor and several vets before it was decided that it was safe to try to keep her intact and try for one more litter. The first word of 'no it's not safe' she would have been spayed in a heartbeat.

I budgeted for the breeding/whelping/raising of this litter but that miscarriage upped the ante by huge amounts. Her next heat was going to require close monitoring by the vet, and even then there was no guarantee that the pregnancy was going to go full term or that there wouldn't be problems. Well, there were problems at whelping that almost ended up in a c-section. Dogs don't go into labor when it is convenient for us or when the vet is open, so weekend emergency fees upped the money total again.

I ended up with 3 healthy pups, but at great cost. The cost of money is one thing, cause it IS NOT CHEAP. Forget the health testing before, the cost of breeding/whelping (and raising pups) is expensive. But the cost to my girl? Her health? And my health from the nerves and stress? Those totals will never be known. Piper is spayed now to keep her safe from further infections. I owe her every consideration to be sure she stays safe, just like I do her daughters in the future. I got 3 when I could have gotten none or 1. Breeding is no guarantee. Regardless of the end game. It is hard and it is heart breaking. It is also joyful and happy. But it is not something to go into lightly.

The requirements for raising puppies? A complete and totally different undertaking. The cost of food, toys, supplies, vaccinations for how many (?), vet visits for unseen accidents (trust me they happen), worming, etc.....the list grows exponentially. Trust me. LOL

But again you need to know what you are looking at. Research. It will save you heartache. Plan. It will save your butt. Don't look at this in the short term. Instant gratification is not the name of the game when you are talking about breeding.

The whole purpose behind this and every other answer - that you and your son will stop and think about what breeding your dog will mean. Not just in picking the sire, but in her health, his health, the health problem your breed is known for - do they carry it? do their parents/brothers/sisters/their progeny carry it? Are you ready for the chance at losing your girl to problems?  Temperaments are as IMPORTANT as health issues. So many dogs get put down/turned in to shelters due to bad temperaments. That is as big a consideration as health issues. Please think about this. BREEDING IS SO MANY THINGS MORE THAN MATING TWO DOGS TO GET PUPPIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We are here because we care. We are passionate because we have been there and done that and seen WAY more than what any person ever wants to see.

In direct answer to your question? Pretty colors/markings do not a healthy/stable temperament stud make. What you are describing could be dew claws, but without seeing pictures of his feet I would be loathe to commit to a firm answer. If they are actual toes, then yes that could be a problem. If you are worried about inbreeding I would pass on the dog. Studying pedigrees and learning about the dogs in each line is important. Personally, I would not trust the owner of the male to give you an accurate pedigree. I do not know him from Adam. Do you? Even if he comes up with paperwork after your comment about the originals being lost in a fire, is it accurate and applicable to the male that your son is considering? If you are worried about inbreeding then encourage your son to do his research and find a person that is knowledgeable about GSD's to help him find several healthy, good temperament males to consider as possible matches for his girl. At the SAME time I would encourage him to have her tested for health issues known to GSD's and whether his girl has them. She needs health clearances above her vet going 'oh she's healthy to breed' - that is not health clearances on her heart, hips,  etc.

We are not trying to be cruel. We are not trying to be mean. You asked a question. That question is not a simple yes/no answer. Breeding is not a simple yes/no question.

Maybe I'm just a terrible cynic but I really had to wonder if this post was for real given the other breeding conversations of the last few days.

bunni

Maybe I'm just a terrible cynic but I really had to wonder if this post was for real given the other breeding conversations of the last few days.

I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often.  On the GSD boards there are new posts like this weekly or more.

 Yes, I suspect a troll.

Yes, which is why im sure Amanda made popcorn, and I asked for a bowl.

Jewlieee

 Yes, I suspect a troll.

Do I need to bust out my Pirate-themed troll picture?

 lol that picture needs to show up on a lot more threads imo!

wondering owner

the dog had 2 extra toes on the side of the left foot and one on the right foot.

 Had these been double dew claws, I would wonder if someone was in possession of a Beauceron (which looks like a GSD/Dobe cross to someone who isn't familiar w/the breed.)  Regardless, all of the issues of breeding have already been mentioned by others.  If you don't know the pedigree of the potential stud dog, and you're questioning inbreeding based on deformed feet, I'm thinking that breeding to this male is a bad idea.

OP - stick around and learn from the membership here.  They're going to be much kinder than other boards you may come across. 

thank you

ok first off he is NOT going to breed her with the dog i had mentioned, and yes she is in good health. She is 2 yrs old. and we already know about the puppies not being reg without both parents having  been reg. also had a GSD several yrs ago. bred her with MY dog. we screen ALL selected buyers and even went and took one back because he wasnt being taken care of. those puppies were sold but not with papers. (our choice) we didnt get to breed this female with mine because he will be 11 yrs old in Nov and so with the normal health that goes with the age we arent even trying it. And yes we are taking precautions with that issue. Far as the WHY . well we dearly love both dogs and would like the opportunity for others to have the pleasure. NOT because of the money made off them because they are going to be sold for not an extremely low amount but not the highest we could get. Like i said any money made from it will be going towards his children. he has 3 of which he has custody of 2. so he isnt doing it for that. and as for anything I may have in it is getting one of the pups. as my dog oh and the female he had before had gotten stolen, him and his kids had went to the store and when they got back she was gone from the yard, and no her chain had not broken it had been taken off the collar.

 Being in good health is entirely different than health testing. If she's 2, she can go in for hip and elbow xrays to be submitted for OFA certification, eye testing, etc. I wouldn't look twice at a breeder who simply had a vet's note saying the dog was healthy.

Also, responsible breeders don't make much of an income on their pups when compared to what goes into a responsibly bred litter. Saying your son will be putting money made on the litter towards his children just makes it sound like a moneymaking venture.

 I love my dog dearly (and he comes from health tested parents, grandparents and so on as well as champion parents, grandparents, and on up) but I had no desire to breed him. I acquired him as a pet first and foremost, and he was neutered. (though I'd still not have bred him, even if I had chosen to leave him intact)

With all due respect, a polite manner and no ill intention, I dont think you understand yet what "healthy" folks are talking about.

Dogs are referred to as having a "plastic" genetic code.  That means the "type" (what the dog looks like) and the "temperment" (what the dog acts like) are easily manipulated with breeding choices.  Health is a big issue as GSDs have a number of inherited diseases.  These diseases although not life threatening in many cases do impact qualtiy of life and the medical expenses encountered by owners.  Temerpment is also inherited.

Line breeding (which may in some cases include in breeding) is done to increase the chances that puppies produced will carry more traits of their parents than those puppies of an unknown outcross (the type of breeding your son is considering).

I will be breeding my bitch as part of the purchase contract I signed with her breeder.  Nora is a finished champion.  She won 4 majors (you need three to finish).  That means four different judges  (three of whom breed belgians) watched her and put their hands on her to evaluate her  temperment, structure and  movement.  Her's was considered the best on those four days compared to the other belgians that were shown on that day.  She will be working on performance titles starting this fall (obedience, rally and agility)

All breeding decisions have been made by the breeder who has an established kennel (1973).  They know the history and purpose of the breed, health and traits of their dogs. They could listen to the things I would like to improve and select a compatable male.

 Nora has had her eyes CERFed (animal eye health registry). She is cleared.  You need to be careful about pannus in GSDs.  Her elbows have passed and her hips are OFA good.  This means the bones of the joints are well formed and lameness is not expected to be related to that strucrure.  Her thyroid function is MSU normal; hypothyroidism is on the increase in purebred dogs.  She has been checked for cardio including a full examination by a canine cardiologist (under sedation).  She will be CERFed again prior to breeding.  I will have puppy homes arranged prior to her breeding.  (there are three already set).

Many of the painful (for the dog or the pocketbook) medical conditions are the result of gene combinations that not even partially understood.  The great problem for breeders is that a single dog from a litter may be fine (but the genetic mix for a mess are there) so it is litter mates as well as studs and dams who must be investigated.  Some traits (positive or negative) show up in half sibs or grandparents....

Breeding is a crap shoot.  The best defense is knowledge of the breed and the lines.  It should be supported by good medical care and a well experienced mentor.  I got a bad gsd.  My choice to get him (and he passed the Volhards puppy test with flying colors and was a breeze to train initially) ended up costing  lots of vet  dollars and milllions of tears.  He was the most difficult dog to own but he had a reasonanbly good life with an experienced owner (in the fact that I had owned and trained dogs for competition for years).  Please dont make choices that will place a similar genetic mess with a family ill equipped to deal with it.

"Dearly loving" dogs intended to be bred means proving their worth fairly and squarely otherwise you are selling your dogs short by becoming a breeder and not doing any of the necessary work.  It is not fair to the dogs, the potential buyers, and to the breed when you randomly throw two nice looking, nice acting dogs together.  To be blunt, as a GSD fancier I'd never in a million years buy a puppy like that and wouldn't be paid to own one.  When I spend money on a new puppy I'm not just trying to buy the puppy that I want, but also support a breeding program that I think will carry the breed forward in the right direction.  What you have described is absolutely not it.  Like MRV said, when we speak of "health" we are not talking about an annual vet check.  Most vets are not qualified to shoot good hip and elbow rads, let alone read them.  Same goes for a good reproductive vet being lined up for the bitch in case something goes wrong.  If you dearly love your dogs then they deserve the best of the best, no?  If you want a dog that looks and acts like the current dog, you have a much better likelihood of finding that by going back to the original breeder and purchasing from a repeat litter or same lines.  What you are describing is basically out-crossing blind, no knowledge of the other dog (from a genetic standpoint).  You can't assume you'll get even a single puppy that looks and acts like the current dogs.  Many GSD traits are polygentic and their genetics is no so simple as 50/50 from each parent.  Have you already studied the genetics of both dogs? (grandparents, siblings, other progeny)?

mrv,

Thank you for taking the time to make that thorough and easily-understood post for folks who may not know "all the right terminology", and might otherwise feel intimidated to ask questions.  It's clear you bent over backwards to help this poster understand the intricacies related to breeding.  Thank you!