How do you respond to people who want to breed?

I usually get turned off when people talk about breeding their dogs unless I know they have a history with the breed. So usually when someone talks about breeding "just because" I bring up how expensive it can be to have a little of puppies, especially now when people can't afford to buy pets. I talk about complications during birth, dealing with dead puppies, all the vet bills for mom and pups, and the fact that their gorgeous female dog will lose her great figure (heh). Usually when you talk about how it will hit their wallet, they think twice

I can see what you're going at with your response, and to someone who truely cares about their dog and the puppies would probably learn from that kind of response... but the reality is, most people who breed their "beautiful and well behaved" dog to to old Joe's dog down the street, probably dont care what you think about them, cause they KNOW if they advertise them in the paper they can get money from them.

 My old high school bus driver lives just a ways up the street from me. I talked to her every day on the bus for 2 years (we had about an hour drive in the morning and 45 mins in the afternoon) so we had plenty of time to talk lol. She knew I liked dogs, so when she got a GSD puppy, she asked if I wanted to come see her. Of course I did, I went to see her several times and she was such a cute puppy. I offered to help train her and walk her, and bring her to play with Bailey but she always said no, because she already had a "trainer". Time went by and Shelby(her female GSD puppy) got older, she got ANOTHER GSD puppy, a male this time. Shelby was a year old and Gizmo was still a puppy when she decided she wanted to breed Shelby. I tried eeeeeverything to convince her not to. Shelby has no training, no socialization, many, many behavior issues... BUT, she is a "beautiful shepherd" so aparently that is reason enough to breed her. She had puppies, I went up to see them, she was selling them for $600 each in the newspaper. Then, Gizmo was about a year old and she bred her again. Shelby had puppies again, she kept one of the puppies(female) and sold the rest. Shelby's daughter had a litter, Im not sure who the father is, Im pretty sure its Gizmo. Last time I talked to her, Shelby was on her 4th litter. And nothing I said made any difference to her about breeding them. Some people just DONT care. Its an easy way for them to make money, and they dont see it as really hurting the dogs, so why not?

If someone ever asks me about breeding their dog, I have no problem with telling them exactly what I think, no matter how it offends them. My first question usually is What titles do they have? How were his/her health tests? And usually their response is something like "Oh well I dont bring her to dog shows, I think they're cruel... She is just a really pretty dog and she would make really cute puppies" If I mention anything like "That will only be adding to the problem of too many unwanted dogs" I get something like "Oh I wouldnt ever give them to the pound I will make sure they get nice homes". My next question to that would be "What happens in you dont find enough homes? Whats going to happen if the people cant/dont care for the dog anymore? are you prepared to vaccinate the puppies, screen potential adopters, make them sign spay/neuter agreements, care for all your puppies that dont get homes or get returned?" - That usualy leaves them with nothing to say. I try not to be too mean about it, I dont want to come off as being rude, but I also try to be serious enough to really make them think twice about breeding their dog. There are SO many backyard breeders around where I live its ridiculous. There is a "pit bull" BYB 3 houses down from me, a chi x pom BYB about 10 houses down from me, A GSD BYB up the street from me, GoldenDoodle BYB one street over... the list could go on and on.

My motto has been, "when I find something questionable, I ask questions"  So I start asking them about their dog - health tests, titles, it's ancestry and testing/titles on them.  Their history/experience in the breed.  ("this is my first" is a giant HEELLLLLLOOO no! lol)  I ask if they are a member of their breed club. If they have a breeding mentor and if not, to consult their breed club to find one.  Etc, etc - all the usual stuff you'd be looking for in a breeder, etc.  Their vet's experience with breeding, particularly with their breed of choice (some we know are more complicated than others.)  Ask the questions to find the answers that the potential breeder should already have an answer to, before they ever consider putting two dogs together.

I guess my main gripe is with the "If you breed your dogs all your precious puppies will end up in the SHELTER!!!" type responses.  Maybe it bothers me because I use to volunteer at the shelter, and I know that those statements simply aren't true.  The dogs in the shelter are mostly there for behavioral reasons, and those reasons have little if nothing to do with WHERE the dog originally came from.  I saw dogs from "good" breeders, pet stores, BYBs, you name it....the dogs are there because of the OWNER'S shortcomings with training and socializing the dog, not what breeder the dog came from.  When I see a response to that effect in these type of threads it annoys me because for one it's simply not true and two, it brings the focus away from what's important: educating the OP about what it really means to breed correctly.

I know how I respond in these threads and stand by it but I'm trying to understand why people consistently insist that sub-standard breeding = puppies in the shelter....

Liesje

I guess my main gripe is with the "If you breed your dogs all your precious puppies will end up in the SHELTER!!!" type responses. 

I get what you mean about that... WE all know that its not necessarily true, dogs in shelters come from all sorts of situations, but you cant deny that a someone who buys a dog from a newspaper add, is more likely to end up dumping the dog at the shelter for whatever reason (cost,behavior,health, etc) than someone who searched for a reputable, responsible breeder.

When a BYB says that "My puppies will never end up and the pound, I sell them to good homes" I ask them "What if the people cant handle the dog anymore, do you have contracts with your buyers that the dog MUST come back to you? Otherwise you DONT KNOW where that dog will end up, and there is a high chance that it just might be at the pound."

The problem is on a public forum, people tend to park their courtesy and their intelligence in neutral and just plain VENT because it's somewhat anonymous.  It's easier to give someone heck verbally (it's more satisfying to the person posting) than it is to labor over a post so it's NOT offensive and mean.

Because of my teaching background/personality I tend to always try to approach posting to get my point across rather htan just shoving my beliefs down someone's throat.

I remember when *I* first started posting ... *I* really didn't understand either.  I learned ... and along the way I began to learn there's a way to approach and get someone to listen ... and there are ways that just don't accomplish that.

 It's a more multi-faceted issue than most realize AND it's an emotional one.  Because different things about dogs trigger DIFFERENT emotions in different people.

I've never deliberately went out to get a particular "breed" in my life.  I've never bought a dog.  I've honestly never wanted to.  In fact I have a tough time understanding people who DO want to belong to a particular part of the Fancy. 

so I have to stretch to understand that ... But I know in order to make it make sense to ANY person ... you have to approach it all from a humane standpoint.  If you set out to just "set someone straight" you're more apt to drive them off the cliff than to make any valid points because people don't listen well when they are hurt, offended or outraged.

And some people are just looking for validation any way they can get it - so they aren't TRYING to understand.  So honestly you have to evaluate the speaker and try and figure out if they ARE educable.  or not.

But in order to really answer someone's question in a way that will make a difference, you sometimes have to LISTEN really *hard* to what they are really asking in the first place.  If they want easy money -- they are simply probably not going to listen unless you can appear to some inner sense of responsibility to their own dog or their feelings about it.

Liesje

Maybe it bothers me because I use to volunteer at the shelter, and I know that those statements simply aren't true.  The dogs in the shelter are mostly there for behavioral reasons, and those reasons have little if nothing to do with WHERE the dog originally came from.

 

While that may have been true a year ago, in the past month (excluding the week I was gone) I turned away at LEAST 4 people with litters of puppies that they had bred, and could no longer care for. Now - these weren't 6-8 week old pups, we're talking 4 MONTHS old now. They weren't able to sell their precious dogs offspring, and now their stuck. They have no money for food, vet bills, etc because their puppy sales fell through. People just aren't buying at the rate they used to - heck - people aren't even ADOPTING at the rate they used to! My adoptions have declined rapidly over the past few months.

But in response to your original question - sadly, I just have to bite my tongue sometimes to keep myself out of trouble. I try to stay out of those threads....

Liesje

I guess my main gripe is with the "If you breed your dogs all your precious puppies will end up in the SHELTER!!!" type responses. 

I have never cared for those type of statements either.  That or even worse you will have someone who makes a post stating their dog just had puppies and you will get twenty people rushing in to tell them how they are a horrible person and just killed a bunch of dogs, like the user personally went and strangled dogs in the shelter.  Usually I avoid those type of threads, but if I feel the need to respond I usually try to warn the potential breeder to think about the health testing they should get done, the potential costs, and to objectively look at their dogs temperament in addition to, oh she is pretty.

Spazzy

I get what you mean about that... WE all know that its not necessarily true, dogs in shelters come from all sorts of situations, but you cant deny that a someone who buys a dog from a newspaper add, is more likely to end up dumping the dog at the shelter for whatever reason (cost,behavior,health, etc) than someone who searched for a reputable, responsible breeder.

 

Are they though?  I'm not sure I can agree with that.  At least, anecdotally I've not seen any evidence to support it.  There are many people who always get their dogs on CL or in the paper, have never paid for a dog, but always treat their dogs well and assume full responsibility.  I also know many families who've been given dogs by friends or got their family dogs at the pound and again, never had problems with these dogs and never once crossed their mind to dump the dog in the shelter.

I think that the people who rush in to say that the puppies will end up in the shelter, really mean that truly responsible breeders will take their puppies back for life. 

So, yes, I can say that the breeders I would buy from/support would never have a dog end up in a shelter, and if by some freak of nature it did, it would be out as soon as the breeder could get there.  They are chipped, on contracts, and get frequent updates.  I just think they don't explain it right.  These puppies are a commitment for their lifetime, not until their new owner's check cashes. 

I do think there is a genetic component to temperment and trainability.  So I don't agree that it can be said that most of the dogs end up in the shelter through the new owner's inability to train.  The breeder has an obligation to try their best not to produce a dog with the equivalent of doggy ADD.

There is a massive byb problem here, too, though.  If I see a thread like that, I try to point things about rationally.  Why I would go to someone else for a puppy, the amazing gems that can be found in rescue, and how Fluffy's puppy will NOT be a carbon copy of fluffy. 

Moonlight

I think that the people who rush in to say that the puppies will end up in the shelter, really mean that truly responsible breeders will take their puppies back for life. 

 

To me those aren't saying the same thing though, and many of these people do insist they would take dogs back. Whether or not that's true, no one would really know until it happened I supposed...

That's true.  The proof is in their actions when it happens.

But the ones I've asked, don't have a contract, aren't chipping, minimal pre-sale vetting, and selling to 'nice' people.  I see no way for them to say that they are preventing the dog ending up in a shelter.  I see no way for them to even know if it's going to a shelter.

Moonlight

That's true.  The proof is in their actions when it happens.

But the ones I've asked, don't have a contract, aren't chipping, minimal pre-sale vetting, and selling to 'nice' people.  I see no way for them to say that they are preventing the dog ending up in a shelter.  I see no way for them to even know if it's going to a shelter.

 

But really, the same is true for ANY breeder.  Even a contract means nothing until someone actually takes it to court before a judge for interpretation.

On another board there is someone in rescue who frequently posts dogs she's taken in who appear well bred and often have tattoos, so the breeders can come get them and claim their first right of refusal (because even with breeders willing to take back dogs, owners will dump them without contacting).

Maybe they cannot say they are "preventing" dogs from ending up in a shelter but then who is?  Anyone who breeds animals pretty much assumes the same risk.  Just like a breeder can have all the health "guarantees" in the world but it does not absolutely prevent a dog from having HD, ED, etc.

I usually ask how old the dog(s) in question are, when they had their health certs done, have they discussed their breeding options with their vet, and what titles they have. I don't make it about me - that I wouldn't buy their puppies or how I think breeding should be done; I just try to make it sound matter of fact, that these are things that EVERYONE expects from their breeder. I try to tailor the conversation to the individual conversation. If they are breeding Fluffy because they love her so much and she's so great, I'll inform them that Fluffy could have complications during pregnancy/labor, which could even prove fatal, and that the pups won't be JUST like Fluffy. For someone who wants to breed to make money, I inform them of all the health testing, the vet checks, vet care for momma and puppies, etc., letting them know that these pups are not the money makers they think they are. For someone who is just clueless about breeding, I'll send them home with OFA forms and information, veterinary pamphlets on breeding your dog, and the national website for their breed of choice.

I don't go down the "There are so many dogs in shelters" route usually; the people that care often already know, and the people that don't care won't be swayed by some outrageous number (4 million pets surrendered every year? How is that even a fathomable number that someone can connect to? And even more so, they may think that 8 more puppies in the world won't make a difference when there are 4 million homeless pets. - just a drop in the bucket) or by getting insulted as to why they are so stupid and irresponsible. An honest, tactful conversation with a clueless person can open their eyes to the pet overpopulation problem without making them feel stupid, hurt, or insulted. However, using it as a crutch to talk to people out of breeding their dog usually does not have that effect!

I will have to disagree that most dogs are in shelters due to behavior problems. Especially in the current economy, but even previously, the number of dogs surrendered because the owner had no money, the owner was moving, or other circumstances that solely had to do with the owner, made up a good number of our owner surrenders, across all of the shelters that I've managed. Not because these dogs are wild or untrained but because they are victims of their owners' circumstances. Many wonderful dogs, and puppies even, end up in shelters through no fault of their own and I think it is important that people do understand that these animals are not problematic or difficult. Unless a breeder is willing to take back all of their puppies, AND stays in touch with all of their puppies' owners, any dog can be surrendered to a shelter, no matter who/what/why they were bred in the first place.