How do you respond to people who want to breed?

Whenever people go on about wanting to breed their dogs, one thing that I make a point to emphasize is puppy lemon laws. Quite a few states have them and when folks learn that they can be sued for selling inferior pups, it does make some think twice. More often than not, I refer them to my dog breeding guide that has a lot of resources on there.

 I'll start by saying I am not particularly knowledgeable on this topic as I have never bought a purebred dog or one from a BYB and have never bred dogs. SO my thoughts:

Honestly may be it is a local phenomenon but our shelters have a ton of litters dumped, LINK hopefully that links to a pic posted by our SPCA - a litter heading into the spay/neuter clinic.  So I do think that the unsold pups get dumped.  There are also a ton of ads in the paper saying "must get rid of the last two - insert breed and age- this week"  They'll be dumped

What I would say to the potential puppy maker is a lot of what Paige said/asked/ and then go over what her responsibilities are as a 'breeder' and the costs involved.  i think most people don't consider how expensive it can be to raise pups and how involved they need to be to properly acclimate them to the world - this is the help and advice they supposedly want

Liesje

I saw dogs from "good" breeders, pet stores, BYBs, you name it....the dogs are there because of the OWNER'S shortcomings with training and socializing the dog, not what breeder the dog came from. 

Probably already covered, but I would hope a good breeder would take the dog back... even insist on it, so that it never ends up in a shelter.

kpwlee

Honestly may be it is a local phenomenon but our shelters have a ton of litters dumped, LINK hopefully that links to a pic posted by our SPCA - a litter heading into the spay/neuter clinic.  So I do think that the unsold pups get dumped.  There are also a ton of ads in the paper saying "must get rid of the last two - insert breed and age- this week"  They'll be dumped

Unfortunately, it is not local to just your area, Karen.  It happens here ALL.THE.TIME.

Liesje

I guess I see these types of emotional responses as offensive and accusatory and often the OP returns to make a comment like, "Gee I was just looking for help and advice" and never comes back to the board.

It is your willingness to share what you know in the spirit of helping people to help their dogs that makes you a valued member of this board.I have respect for you because you give people the benefit of the doubt.If someone is attacked for asking a question they may very well close their mind and not give what you have to say another moment's thought.As for what I say to a person who wants to breed dogs.....I use Noel's breeder as an example.I explain the health tests,how the parents have herding titles and why that's important,her screening process and the fact she will take the dog back if necessary.Then I explain It's this woman's love for her breed not money that motivates her.I can only share my viewpoint and hope it resonates.Shoving one's opinion down another's throat only creates resentment and in the end won't help the dog. 

Tena   

Liesje

But really, the same is true for ANY breeder.  Even a contract means nothing until someone actually takes it to court before a judge for interpretation.

On another board there is someone in rescue who frequently posts dogs she's taken in who appear well bred and often have tattoos, so the breeders can come get them and claim their first right of refusal (because even with breeders willing to take back dogs, owners will dump them without contacting).

Maybe they cannot say they are "preventing" dogs from ending up in a shelter but then who is?  Anyone who breeds animals pretty much assumes the same risk.  Just like a breeder can have all the health "guarantees" in the world but it does not absolutely prevent a dog from having HD, ED, etc.

I think I'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

If it's chipped in the breeders name, too = breeder is contacted when it goes to the shelter

If they interview and get references when they place a pup = they have the person's address and phone, and they can call the references to see how the puppy is/why owner doesn't contact.  Or call the vet ref to make sure they still own it/it's getting care.

Contract = if the person is moral and ethical, the breeder will be contracted when they can't keep the puppy

If the breeder is active in breed rescue = they'll have contacts to let them know if one of their breeding turns up

I see all of these things as prevention.  And I think that any breeder who does them and more, is doing a heck of a lot more than Suzy byb and has a much better probability of making sure their pup isn't dumped and killed at a shelter.  There are no guarantees in anything, but doing something is better than doing nothing.

I guess for me there's just SO much more to it, I can't make an assumption about someone based one just one thing or another.  I was looking into importing a dog from Europe and none of your conditions would apply, due to language barriers, making arrangements through a third party (to help with language barriers, make sure all the papers and payments are in order), the microchips and readers are not the same here as there and often the dogs use the tattoo as the registered ID so the new owner can use whatever chip they please.  There is no one that can say this breeder is not a top breeder, he consistently produces top quality dogs that are bought all over the world and himself is a top competitor, SV judge, and travels internationally to judge and give seminars.  Me personally, when I buy a dog I buy with no strings attached, so the dog is registered to me in full and I will choose what type of microchip to implant and how it is registered (this is important to me because at WDA/SV events, these are checked and I'm responsible to have my own scanner that reads the chip).  If a breeder does not trust me for any reason, it is their right not to sell me a dog.

That's true.  An import would be an exception. 

But I would guess that he's had to approve you and get references?  I would trust he doesn't let anyone who wants one of his dogs with the money have one.

Liesje

On another board there is someone in rescue who frequently posts dogs she's taken in who appear well bred and often have tattoos, so the breeders can come get them and claim their first right of refusal (because even with breeders willing to take back dogs, owners will dump them without contacting).

We all know that rescues handle themselves differently.  At the Dobe rescue I worked at, anyone who requested to relinquish their dog was first asked the name of the breeder.  (usually, people want to "brag" if they got from a breeder, as if their dog is more valuable because it has registration papers.)  Then asked if the breeder was contacted about their intention to relinquish.  Then asked if there was a contract signed when they purchased the dog.  If we get the name first, and the owner says they did contact the breeder and the breeder refused to take the dog back, we still called the breeder directly ourselves to tell them the dog is about to end up in rescue.

If the previous owner neglects to provide the information, but the dog is accepted and arrives with paperwork, or a microchip, or tattoo, we did the research to track down the breeder and let them know their dog was in rescue to be retrieved.

NOW, if the breeder at that point refuses to take the dog.... unless there are extenuating circumstances (breeder is on their death bed kind of thing), then any breeder who refuses to take back their dog at that point is *NOT* considered a good breeder, by most objective people.

Edit to add - regarding imports.  If a breeder is willing to ship the dog overseas to an owner, it should be willing to retrieve the dog or find an alternative home for said dog, in whatever country it now resides.  I tend to think it's a cop-out to pretend their hands are tied on keeping their dog from rescue if they know that's where it's headed.  Again, if you're willing to let your dog go to another country, you should have a network of folks in that region (maybe not specific country) who want to support your dog.  You should have other contacts, other potential buyers, other trainers to evaluate temperament for you if necessary, etc.  Now, if you're saying that imports operate the sale of their puppies in ways that differ from US (ie,the expectation that all puppies should be microchipped, contracted, etc,) then, yes, you're right.  I still have a hard time thinking someone would ship a valuable dog across the ocean without retaining some legal rights to that dog through a sales contract.

I agree with you....

I think it's more important to educate people than bash them when our differing opinions..... and turn them off learning more and being a responsible pet owner.

As for whom is most likely to dump - it ranges, truly.  When it comes to purebred dogs, from my experience doing intake interviews, I'd say the source of a very hefty percentage were from either hobbyist or BYB breeders.  Now, the common aspect to that is someone bought the dog from the breeder (whether they found them through friends, the internet, classifieds, who knows).  Then the dog is too much for them, so they give the dog to a friend/coworker/associate/or re-sell it themselves.  That second person then either repeats the process, or relinquishes the dog to rescue, having no idea who the original breeder was.  *COULD* have been a great breeder, but, again, usually if people "paid good money" and "have papers", they're hyped to provide that when they re-sell or give away their dog/puppy.  Some would hide it.  Often they lose "the papers" and don't even remember the name of the breeder (good indication of poor research in choosing a breeder, imo).  So, again, you'll never know if that dog came from great or crummy breeders.

Having BTDT and done the testing and chipping and scrutinizing new owners, etc etc. I used to tell people who wanted to breed how to do it the 'right way' and it worked with a few. 

I have grown so weary of people wanting to 'breed 'em' that I pretty much just say "ok." and walk away. 

For myself, breeding the right way takes a lotof work and dedication and ended up being not for me. 

I am continually amazed at the wide range of dog knowledge (or lack of it) the public has. Some of what we take for granted on this board is fanatical or even too far out to consider to a lot of nice normal people who just aren't on the same page.  Once when I felt really bad for having to find a new home for one of my beloved girls I mentioned it to someone (not a "dog" person but a wonderful woman) who said to me "Why would you feel bad over that?" and I said "Because I promised to keep her". Just her look at me in response before she even said anything made me understand that this was not a universal value and not even understandable to some people and it "cured" me. (I don't feel bad about the husband I divorced and I promised to keep him for life too.)

My point is that what we consider "irresponsible" is very insulting or even just alien to a lot of nice well-meaning people who just don't have the dog community experience we have. And even "we" have a wide range of differing opinions and values.

The way I respond to people who want to breed (obviously I don't ask about titles. Those who know me know I bred dogs but never showed dogs - a big controversy in itself) depends on what their motivation seems to be. Usually it is because they love their dog so much they want more of the same dog (as if that happened) or they want to make a little money.  I generally offer to help them work out a budget starting with the cost of a c-section that might save their dog's life. For a lot of people just a little dose of reality tends to make them look at it differently.  If I think money is the motivation after I tell them how much it might cost them I suggest that they call the ads in the paper (which is usually what is making them think they can "make a little money";) and see how fast the puppies are actually selling at the advertised prices.

Many people have no idea that the local dog "shelter" kills most of the dogs who walk through the door so this is sometimes an eye opener too. 

I have taken back 3 of the dogs I bred as pups. A pair of them were given up by a "wonderful owner" who adopted a baby and said the dogs were too much for her. I admit that I judged her rather harshly for this but in truth she was a good dog owner because she made sure they came back to me knowing I would make sure they were well taken care of in another home. Another dog I found out was sold and tracked down the new owner. They did not want to let her go but within a year the husband was taken sick and the wife needed to let the dog go (a probably awful decision made by the woman's daughter) but they did contact me and I did buy her back for what they paid for her because if I didn't they wouldn't let me take her, they'd try to sell her.  And when one of my puppy buyers was recently homeless for a short time I paid the local pet store for pet food she could stop in for any/every day. (Her dog is now 6 years old and she is probably the best pet owner given what she has to work with - not at all in circumstances any of us would ever have expected.)

At the least I try to be as kind to the people as my dogs would be and try to be more helpful and educational than judgemental.

Liesje

I guess my main gripe is with the "If you breed your dogs all your precious puppies will end up in the SHELTER!!!" type responses. 

  I'm with you on this one. 

  When I have run into people wanting to breed their dogs, I try to offer them help as far what it takes to be a "good breeder" (although that is a pretty subjective term). It is pretty unlikely that you will convince people to not breed by shoving the "your puppies will die in shelters!" line down their throat or using scare tactics because to the average person that sounds ridiculous. But if you talk to them like someone who is just looking for info, they may decide that maybe dog breeding isn't for them.

  So I generally will talk about health testing, why health testing is important and that by health testing their dog and breeding only to a health tested dog they will make their puppies more desirable when it comes time to sell them. And they will be able to say that if something goes wrong with one of them, they did everything they could to prevent it. I talk about the expenses of health testing, which in breeds like GSDs is really not that much. I do bring up the unexpected things happening by using personal examples. "When you breed, you hope everything goes smoothly and very often it does. But you do need to be prepared for the possibility of a c-section or having to handraise puppies. Friends of mine ended up having to handraise 11 puppies, after the mother had to have a c-section and wouldn't except them. That was a rough few weeks for them because puppies have to be fed every four hours around the clock, so they were waking up all hours of the night and having to miss or leave work during the day to be home to feed them." I also talk about the possibility of the puppies not selling as quickly as one would expect, especially in this economy. I will explain that any "leftover" puppies will need to be started with socialization, crate training and housetraining until they find homes and that it is extremely hard to place older puppies who missed out on early training and socialization. I talk a bit about genetics and pedigree research and how it is very helpful to know the dogs behind their dogs and the stud dog they use. Pretty much my approach is to reasonable offer the facts and let them think about if breeding is something they want to do.

 With this, at the very least you are helping people become more educated and maybe they will at least do health testing and screen owners if they are really set on breeding their dog. Everyone has to start some where and many respected breeders started off with breeding pet quality dogs years ago.

I'm afraid I'm guilty of the "all your puppies will die in a shelter" response (or at least the thought even if I don't say it out loud). I've been involved in animal rescue for many years and I volunteer at a no kill shelter every week. I know the statistics of unwanted animals being dumped and the millions euthanised each year because there are no homes. Those of us who feel that way may have an emotional response but, unfortunately, it's also a response based on fact and experience. It is still shocking to me how clueless people are about animals and their care.

You are right about missed opportunities. The fact is, as soon as people feel lectured at they shut down and don't hear anything. It is a missed opportunity to educate. There are probably so many things they hadn't considered when it comes to breeding and, it is true, they may decide it's not right for them after all.