Intact dogs and same sex aggression

rwbeagles

When there is STIMULI..yes. I think the issue is your implication that this "innate response"...is constant. Is THAT what you are referring to? There are NEUTERED males who tie bitches for heavenssake. Neutering does not STOP a males interest in a bitch Callie...not always...not even often IMO...it simply eliminates his ability to IMPREGNATE her. Is having a neutered male in a home with intact bitches who cycle...who then tries to breed them...also cruel or mean?

Thanks Gina - this is EXACTLY what I was going to say. 

We have to be very careful with our intact bitch, because altho my male is neutered, he COULD tie with her, and neither being experienced, my understanding is that an injury could occur.... 

We were at a BBQ this weekend, she is no longer in season (we are certain of that) but she obviously still "smells nice".  The NEUTERED male on the property would NOT leave her alone and was constantly trying to mount her...  Not being in season, she was hardly flaunting herself, she kept running away from him and coming to shelter under my seat or by my legs.  I don't think she has it in her to snap at a dog that is upsetting her or getting in her face.  There was nowhere suitable to segregate her and his owners had no intention of segregating HIM, so we took her back home.  I think he would have tied, given the chance, and OK, so he is "shooting blanks" as his owners kept saying (as if that made the whole thing perfectly OK and risk free).... But I'm still not gonna let them tie, so maybe it was cruel to both of them to have taken her there in the first place.

The testicles are not the ONLY source of testosterone in the body - maybe that is why this behaviour occurs in altered dogs?

It was my understanding that the male dog reacted to pheromones  given off by the female as she came into heat.  If conception stops the pheromones, the male would lose interest.  Not researched, just old memories of reading something.  I would think dogs that know each other would have the pecking order worked out, and aggression would not be needed.  With strangers, I could see a fight. 

I remember as a kid, watching the neighbors two scruffy Mutt and Jeff dogs-both intact males, coming down our drive to visit our sweet little doxieX.  They didn't seem aggressive, just real dirty.  No fights, no date either.

rwbeagles

calliecritturs

No ... I didn't say a male kept intact is "looking to breed".  But I did say they are aware and there is an inate response.

When there is STIMULI..yes. I think the issue is your implication that this "innate response"...is constant. Is THAT what you are referring to? There are NEUTERED males who tie bitches for heavenssake. Neutering does not STOP a males interest in a bitch Callie...not always...not even often IMO...it simply eliminates his ability to IMPREGNATE her.

 I'm glad someone brought this up. Our corgi was neutered at about 6 months at the shelter before we got him and he is every bit as bad as my intact boy when the girls are in season. He gets agitated, has to be separated from them and will do everything he can to try to breed them. My old neutered male was the same exact way, right up until he died. In fact, I have never known a neutered male who wouldn't try to breed a bitch in season when given the chance. I'll never forget having an bitch in season come to daycare and the owner choosing to let her stay because all the boys were neutered. Every male there wanted to breed her and they became competitive and snarky with each other over her. Everyone of them was neutered, some were neutered fairly young.

 Just as some breeds suffer from a lack of libido, my breeds tends to be "oversexed". The girls are extremely willing when in season and the boys are extremely willing...whenever ;) The boys are interesting in their behavior, as many are extremely macho and competitive but only with other intact male Belgians. I can walk Jagger all around at dog shows and he barely pays any attention to other dogs but if he gets real close to other intact male Belgians it is likely both boys will posture, grunt and snort at each other if they are allowed to.

 Jagger lives with a pack of intact girls and is the only intact male. He has not taken well to other intact adult boys I have brought home but we've still been able to work them together and walk them together. I never tried real hard to fully intregrate these boys with him either, since they weren't staying anyway. Jagger has multiple performance titles and is the best obedience dog I've had. He is 8 years old and has been bred 3 times in his life. With many boys, that is generally the case - most stud dogs don't get regular breedings unless they are big winners and have produced the same. One of the times he was being bred, the girl was at my house while I was trialing him in obedience for his CD. He scored in the 190s both days. He is an all around very well adjusted, easy to live with and easy to take anywhere sort of dog. He is overly friendly with people, not very guardy or territorial and appropriate with most other dogs. I love his temperament and I doubt I'd ever have him neutered, even if he is never bred again.

  I have lived with at least one intact male throughout my entire life. When I was a teen and just getting involved with dog training, we had three intact boys who all lived together without an issue and none of the ever bred. One of those three remained intact his entire 15 years without any issues. The other two were adults when they were neutered (3-5 years old). I really regretted having them neutered for several reasons and wish that the trainers hadn't talked us into having it done.

DougB

I would think dogs that know each other would have the pecking order worked out, and aggression would not be needed.  With strangers, I could see a fight. 

Great point!!  That would make a lot of sense that would be when the fight would occur.  I have lots of friends who have 2 intact males in their homes, usually one male was brought in as a puppy.  I also know of several people who have tried to bring another male in and were fine.... until the bitches came into season. In one instance the males couldn't even SEE each other without going ballistic (forever more, not just when the bitches were in heat).  What do you think the source of that issue was?  Was that behavioral, or is that intact dogs?  They really hurt each other in their first fight... going for blood, not just posturing.  She rehomed one of the males. 

 I also think neutering affects dogs individually. I know of males that are neutered and will still tie.... then there are males (retired stud dogs) that no longer have a libido, even after just a few months of neutering.  I found that interesting. I would have thought that a neutered retired stud dog would be the most prone to breed.  But, a few of the males who will tie were neutered young in life.

DougB

It was my understanding that the male dog reacted to pheromones  given off by the female as she came into heat.  If conception stops the pheromones, the male would lose interest.  Not researched, just old memories of reading something.

Ahhh, very well could be!!  The last time Logan refused after only one breeding and she turned up with 7 pups I said "Oh, I'll always trust the stud dog." But, now that we're here again..... I'm nervous! LOL  I guess I'm anthropomorphizing that just because *I* can't tell if she's pregnant doesn't mean he can't!  Silly humans. TRUST THE STUD DOG :)  (and I really am trying to Logan, I promise!! LOL)

rwbeagles

When there is STIMULI..yes. I think the issue is your implication that this "innate response"...is constant.

NOTHING implied there and nothing *intended* either

rwbeagles

NOT apply to someone "doing something" with their dog? The dog is STILL suffering what you claim?

rwbeagles

And also, WHY does the label "mean" or "cruel" which you use...NOT apply to someone "doing something" with their dog? The dog is STILL suffering what you claim?

 Good heavens this has been SO blown out of proportion. 

It's a matter of sense and sensibility to a degree -- I think it crosses a line when you keep a dog intact long term with no intent to allow them to function fully.  A dog kept by a responsibile breeder for stud purposes IS allowed to function within whatever parameters you follow. 

The dog, in that case, "suffers" no more than the man who maybe doesn't get nookie as often as he thinks he wants it and yet has a functional marriage.  But that would be different than the man exposed to all sorts of sexual stimuli but who was never allowed any release whatsoever for the rest of his life.  (including his own devices)

The word "suffers" is ludicrous.  This entire discussion is ludicrous. 

*I* would never be a breeder.  *I* don't even watch dog shows.  It's not my thing.  It's not my lifestyle.  It's not something I want any part of.  It's not wrong.  It's just NOT *ME*. 

But I do think it's at best "weird" and "not kind" when someone simply keeps a dog intact because of some misguided sense that anthropomorphically they cringe at the thought of "cutting off the family jewels" and yet they make the dog endure a celibate lifestyle no matter what stimuli may abound around them.  I have a HUGE problem with people who mistaken their own sexuality with their dogs.  It's NOT germaine on here. 

I have grown up in breeding households my entire life, and honestly have more experience with intact animals than I do speutered ones. LOL. And by that I mean all the dogs coexisting in the house, pretty much at all times, sharing bed space with each other.

While my girls are both spayed, my male Zipper (who has been used at stud) is intact. He will be seven this year. With that, he is the best dog-dog I have ever met. He is amazing with puppies, gentle with shy dogs, shows no aggression whatsoever to other dogs - male, female, big, small. He has always been amazing with any intact male he lived with, and he has spent time with several in his seven years. He has never picked a fight in his life, and only once was the target of another male's aggression (a male that had a lot of general DA issues...nothing to do specifically with same-sex, as this same male attacked female dogs as well). He is actually a dream dog because he is such a good boy, and such a good model of an intact male.

I have seen same-sex aggression occur within intact males in two main cases:
- disputes over an in-heat intact bitch that is within a close range
- a general dislike for each other, regardless of other factors.

Rarely, the dislike can be caused by a successful fight over an intact bitch, but most often they fight much like drunk men at a bar: Kick the crap out of each other and then help each other off the ground and go grab another drink (when the female is no longer around). As it needs to be stated, testosterone does not cause aggression, it rather controls ease of arousal - it is what that dog does with its arousal that makes the difference. If the dog has low impulse control, poor socialization history, poor training, and poor dog skills - that is usually when true aggression occurs.

We also have to be careful to differentiate between ritualistic aggression (actually considered by some folks to be communication that actually avoids true aggression - "normal aggression" if you will) and damaging aggression. They must not be painted with the same brush. There is a huge difference between same-sex dogs who are noisy and flash their teeth but come away with just spit on the hair, and same-sex dogs who send each other to the vet for surgery and stitches. The level of aquired bite inhibition (ABI) is a huge role-player here. Actual aggression  in which damage is done (aside from small nicks and scrapes, generally around the ears, lips, and cheeks) is actually quite rare.

I have seen same-sex aggression in bitches in far more contexts, as it seems to have many more causes, and it is not generally at all related to spayed vs. intact. Italso seems to be more intense and more damaging then male aggression, on average. Just as many spayed bitches have same-sex issues as do intact bitches. In fact I see many more cranky spayed females than intact females around here (and there is research that actually supports some of this finding), because when a group of females comes into heat - they generally don't fight, but rather, well.....it becomes a bit of an 18+ event. LOL.

On a more personal note - aside from any medical pro's/con's to speutering, I don't think dogs "suffer" in any way simply because they are left intact, nor do I think it is unfair or in any way cruel.

Yes, there is a desire if the appropriate stimuli are present. But those stimuli  can also be present for neutered dogs (I too have seen neutered dogs breed intact females, so the urge is still there). And, just because a desire is there, it doesn't mean the dog has to fulfill that desire. My dogs have many desires that I have decided are not actually good for them. I don't let them fulfill their desire to chase and kill the loose chickens and cats in my neighbourhood. I don't let them fulfill their desire to dig holes in the ground in the backyard. I don't let them fulfill their desires to run free all over the countryside. Urinating on appropriate vertical surfaces is another. There are many "natural desires" that dogs have that we have to control. Breeding rights is just one more of them. You only have to look a little more into some European countries where speutering is not "routine", where intact dogs are found all over (even though they are not breeding), to find that mass speutering is not a world-wide thing, and that many places control their populations and intact dogs wonderfully.

My next dog, which will also be a male, will be left intact as well unless a medical need requires a surgical alteration.

 Erm... Callie, dogs do ... ehem.... use their own devices. I have seen it, over and over.

jennie_c_d

Erm... Callie, dogs do ... ehem.... use their own devices. I have seen it, over and over.

Oh, I just about spit stuff all over the keyboard. But it's so true. I have seen it as well. Male dogs can, and do, masturbate (is that allowed? I hope so, since it is relevant). I have seen this around intact females, and totally separate from intact females (I know one male in particular who lived with a neutered male and a spayed female who pleasured himself regularly in adolescence). Just like some females (and males) do mount and hump other objects (toys, pillows) in what can only be described as a sexual fashion. Jean Donaldson was a great person to bring out the fact that dogs can be quite sexual animals, and it can be very normal! There is a great read in her newest book on sexuality and dogs. Kind of OT, but....yeah.

 Emma would get TOTALLY sidetracked if there was a bitch in season near the obedience ring, and she tried her best to breed bitches in season. She was spayed VERY early, so probably had unusually high testosterone for a bitch. She certainly displayed very doggy behaviors and physical characteristics.

And yeah, they do, sometimes right ON the groomer. People just do NOT realize what my job entails LOL.

Kim_MacMillan

jennie_c_d

Erm... Callie, dogs do ... ehem.... use their own devices. I have seen it, over and over.

Oh, I just about spit stuff all over the keyboard. But it's so true. I have seen it as well. Male dogs can, and do, masturbate (is that allowed? I hope so, since it is relevant).

 I've also seen this and the most obsessive...ummm "self pleasuring" dog I have known was a Rottie that was neutered at 6 months. It was his normal response to becoming overly excited about whatever (often guests coming over the house - how embarassing!). He also had a problem with wanting to mount his owner when he was over excited. Very weird dog but if I remember correctly, the behavior didn't start until he was an adult - well after he had been neutered.

Sera_J

 Since I see another thread is getting derailed I thought we should start a new one,

Thoughts???

jennie_c_d

 Erm... Callie, dogs do ... ehem.... use their own devices. I have seen it, over and over.

My mums dog has a cushion in his bed that he uses for this purpose.  It is his nightly ritual, apparently

I just wanted to pop in and let you know about my fathers springer spaniels. He never owned a neutered dog (he owned GSD's, Labs, and Springers). He hunted with all his springers. He had 2 males at one time (both SS's), and he hunted with a friend that owned 2 males (a springer and a lab). There was never any fights. My dad said in his case it was about training, socializing, and the dogs were driven to work. The dogs rarely cared about each other...except for who was getting called to retrieve the bird. And none of my fathers males were ever bred.

Before Apollo was neutered I noticed he honestly had better dog-dog manners. *shrugs* He was 5+ years when I got him, intact. He was around many dogs without any issue. Then I got him neutered and he became leash reactive (barking/whining, hackles up, no lunging, no showing teeth) and really pushy when playing- almost like he had to "prove" something. We have that under control now, but I always will wonder if it had something to do with him being neutered.

Lex behaves almost exactly the same way as he did before I neutered him, just before his first birthday.He doesnt have any agression toward male intact dogs now or when he was intact. The only thing that changed is that he almost never mounts unless he is at the dog park and other dogs start doing it. 2 or 3 months after he was fixed he did tie with a female....

calliecritturs

they make the dog endure a celibate lifestyle no matter what stimuli may abound around them. 

Can you expound on this a bit more?  Where is this discussed in science or dog behavior?  Just curious, since I have not seen this at all and am a bit puzzled as to where it's even coming from if you do not trial and breed and your dogs are speutered.  Even intact males around intact bitches that are actually IN heat are not simply out of control or losing their minds with desire (as Lani's recent experience shows).  This thread is the first time I've ever read something to the effect that it is cruel to have an intact male around other intact dogs (male or female).  Are you saying that it's OK as long as the dogs are allowed to mount and mate at their choosing?  How does this explain a dog like Lani's that might refuse to mate even an intact bitch in standing heat?