Intact dogs and same sex aggression

Since I got more involved in showing dogs, Schutzhund, and other types of training and competition, I now know very few people that have spayed/neutered dogs.  Most of the people I know have intact dogs, many have multiple in their household.  My breeder friend has multiple intact bitches that are house dogs.  When one is in heat, she is typically moved out to a kennel/run because of the mess and acting weird.  She showed me several pictures (one in the other thread) of her acquaintance in Germany who has 4 intact males and 1 intact female (all related) living together just fine.  I believe *all* of the dogs working in our Schutzhund club at the moment are intact, and half of them have sired or whelped litters so they know what breeding is all about.  We do all kinds of stuff with dogs in close contact (long downs, reporting to the judge, group obedience).  My Nikon is an intact male and we carpool with a friend who also has an intact male about the same age.  Our dogs lick each other through their crates in the van.  As I said in the other thread, I attend many, many dog shows including the Sieger shows where there's about 400 intact GSDs, all trained or titled in bitework, and have never seen a dog fight or even dogs get unruly in the ring because of other dogs.  Nikon was once in the breed ring in a very small ring just a few steps behind a bitch in full heat and it did not effect his behavior.  A few weeks back, we had two females in heat at club and Nikon did some work after them and was a little interested in the floor, but they had literally been dripping on the floor.  However I didn't really have trouble getting him re-focused and his performance was not any different. 

This is all anecdotal of course, but as for intact dogs being out of control and unhappy because of a constant desire to mate, well I guess I just have not seen it and I train with intact dogs of all ages on a weekly basis.  And these are German Shepherds who are supposedly known for same sex aggression and dog aggression in general.

Nikon has a short fuse with dogs getting in his face but this is not limited to either sex or whether the offending dog is intact. I have no intention of neutering him because to be frank, having a dog that puts up with rude behavior from strange dogs is not really high on my list of priorities, not even close to anything that would make me put him through surgery.  He and Coke are very good buddies even though they are both males and about the same size.  Coke was neutered before I got him.  Right now Nikon is my only intact dog but there have never been fights or skirmishes between him and my other dogs.

One thing that I think is difficult is that temperament, drive, and tolerance levels vary so much not just in individual dogs, but by breeds. There are breeds where it's totally NORMAL to have large groups of intact animals with never (or almost never) a cross word- some of the pack hounds would epitomize that- and others for whom their function means that other dogs are inherently something to be driven off (LGDs or fighting breeds).

(ETA because it apparently timed out)

In addition, you also have the signal-to-noise ratio and ancedotal evidence- most irresponsible owners don't neuter, most irresponsible owners don't socialize, train, contain, or appropriately manage their dogs. Is their dogs' bad behavior the result of Teh Ebil Ballz (TM) or being poorly socialized, untrained, and let to run wild? 

I have two intact males, one intact female and one spayed female in my home. The males have fought before but nothing sever and it was over high value toys. We have had our female and male fight once and it was same incident they found a toy and scuffled. Both of these fights would have occured if they were not intact simply bc even if thier sexual organs werent there they would still have fought over the high value object.

When Shiner comes into season the boys are excited but they dont fight each other. She has had 3 heats and we do not let the boys near her at any phase of her cycle. Also when we are not home everyone is in thier own kennels, they are all out together while we are home but I will not take a chance on an incident while im not there to supervise. Thats my experiance but I know everydog is different, intact or not in how they behave with other dogs.

Another thing that I read about a lot at least with GSDs same-sex aggression that is female-female.  "Bitches equal stitches", you know?  I don't have any experience in this since I only have one intact dog and do not really want any intact females, but I've read that the males are more likely going to have a spat for a reason, like fighting over a marrow bone or a bitch in heat, but females will fight because they just can't stand each other.  Also read that the males might be able to have a spat and get over it, but once the females decide they hate each other, it's over for them, forever.

Sera_J

 In the other thread there is thought that a dog (male) kept intact is looking to breed and is feeling sexual frustration thereby unhappy until neutered. 

I was misunderstood there and this perpetuates that -- I will explain ONE MORE TIME but I will not argue, nor will I continue to participate because this tends to be a subject where people ONLY read what they **WANT** to read.  They like their assertions and like to simply pigeonhole anyone else.

No ... I didn't say a male kept intact is "looking to breed".  But I did say they are aware and there is an inate response.  I didn't say there, nor will I say here that they're looking for any sort of a hot time.  *rolling eyes in UTTER frustration*. 

I can tell you it's stressful -- I have seen young dogs battling demodex literally triggered to a demodex response by the body's awareness of a bitch in heat nearby.  I'm not talking about a well-trained dog.  Ones in responsible homes have been taught what is and isn't allowed.  But make no mistake -- they ARE AWARE.

It's my considered opinion if you have a dog you have NO intention of breeding and which doesn't need to be intact for any other reason, that it is kinder to neuter them rather than subject them to the inate response rather than frustrate it or deal with it. 

I said *MY DOG* was happier neutered.  The state of "happiness" is not germaine to most people and I'm not advocating dating services for dogs. 

I'm NOT being anthropomorphic -- I'm simply saying that for the average dog that is simply pet quality and there is no reason for the dog to remain intact (particularly in cases as what was prompted by the other thread) that it is simply kinder to neuter/spay rather than to continually subject them to inate response that can't and shouldn't be fulfilled.

In the wild dogs, wolves and any species self-regulates.  in good times, plenty and good weather there are more progeny -- in bad times, less. 

But when we remove animals from the wild and put them in a domesticated situation -- we, of necessity, control all aspects of their lives.  Particularly in the cities and areas where the dog population is SO out of control, it is critical to prevent more dogs from breeding and burdening the shelters more and more.

But my point is deeper -- that since we control every aspect of their lives, including how much food they eat and when, if we are in a situation where you are NEVER going to allow that animal to stand to breed then why force them to endure the physical effects of it.  Not that they're constantly wanting to mount -- don't be absurd.  BUT males ARE aware when a female is in heat -- not just in close proximity but fat away.  Which is why it's hoped even the most casual and bad of the BYBs keep their dogs under control. 

I've seen males go to great lengths to get TO a female in heat -- they'll climb fences, break things, etc. -- there IS a reaction.  It has the potential to be intense.

My point is I think it's simply kinder to neuter/spay (in addition to the other abundant reasons to do so) when you have a dog that is pet quality and where there is no reason for them to BE intact.  It's an additional reason to spay/neuter is all.  I"m not suggesting anything ground-breaking. 

And I've also found just the average, casual dog owner often more receptive to this line of thinking  if they've been on the fence about whether TO spay/neuter and hadn't been educated in the health reasons for doing so (and had planned NOT to let the dog have progeny)  -- I've often gotten comments like "Gee, you know I never thot of it THAT way ... man, if you put a human man in a room and told him he could look and be aroused but could NEVER touch it wouldn't go over very well and yet, I'm expecting the same thing from my dog.  I don't ever want him TO have puppies but I never thot about the fact that he IS aware of every female out there when she goes in heat."

I"m taking WAY more time at this while I'm at work than I'm wanting to -- so I'm not going to peruse this a zillion times for errors. 

I am NOT saying it's "mean" to keep a male intact that you intend to breed or that you are responsibly dealing with because there is a reason (or a strong personal preference) for you to leave the dog unaltered. 

But particularly a dog that is simply kept chained or outside where they know the status of ALL the local females -- I simply think it's kinder TO spay/neuter than to put them thru that inate response *whenever* it occurs (which isn't all the time -- DUH ... it's when another intact female goes in heat).  A female who is intact *wants* to mate during part of her heat (altho she reserves the right to be picky IF she can).  It's inate.  I just think an ADDITIONAL reason to spay/neuter is because it's kinder. 

I hope this is clear.  Cos I'm really tired of being misunderstood. 

If  a breed is given to be dog or same sex aggressive...seldom does the absence of sexual organs...change much. People get Akitas all the time that they neuter and STILL have issues with aggression. Neutered or not...NO male Akita is going to tolerate nonsense from another male...regardless of HIS sexual status...many will not even tolerate it from a BITCH. LOL. Do not get a dog, like a Rott. certain Terriers, certain Northern breeds, certain other breeds if you are NOT PREPARED to deal with dog or same sex aggression because more often than not a snip snip is not going to do ANYTHING about it. Train a good leave it, have your dog interested in YOU and the tasks you have set for it....and you'd do much better than a neuter and hope for the best thing.

Beagles are a good example yes of males and females being EXPECTED to integrate. NO in season bitches are not really allowed on hunts...well DUH. LOL. But they can run together at other times. IME the bitches are more likely to bicker than the dogs in my hounds.

I do not...in any way shape or form think that my dogs lay around thinking about sex, feeling frustrated, or angry about it, anymore than I think they resent my choosing mates FOR them instead of letting them "fall in love", or get angry with them for neutering or spaying them because I ruined their chance to procreate. Because what matters to a dog is what is right in front of them...in that moment. The same reason you do not punish a dog for peeing on the rug, hours later. They aren't with you on that...lol.

Entire BREEDS, actually suffer from low libido or drive to breed...the males are not interested, AI's are done more often than not...etc. In fact I had a book once with many breeds in the back along with various genetic issues to look out for, and a bit on libido as well...anecdotal evidence collected by the author after speaking with people IN those breeds and quite a few rated a "low libido". It was very interesting to read thru.

Now I HAVE seen a perfectly nice intact boy...being SET UPON by neutered males...which is always weird. They often just are NOT liked amongst a group...but that is not really about the intact dog, obviously there's some issue with the males aggressing on it when no challenge or even interest, has been shown.

And just to throw another angle out there...there is a trend to neuter larger dogs...and really, any dog...later in life. Often AFTER sexual maturity. Perhaps this is also a reason why same sex aggresses remain? Then if that were true you'd have to ask yourself IF neutering at age 4-6 MONTHS would guarantee you a dog absent of any interest in hostility with others...would it be worth the trade off of health issues?

Liesje

Nikon has a short fuse with dogs getting in his face but this is not limited to either sex or whether the offending dog is intact. I have no intention of neutering him because to be frank, having a dog that puts up with rude behavior from strange dogs is not really high on my list of priorities, not even close to anything that would make me put him through surgery.

Well that's fair, IMO.  And the other thing is neutered or not he will probably not put up with that behavior anyway.  I look at my dog and judge him based on his reaction to other well behaved dogs.  Judging a dog based on how they respond to rude behavior is not fair grading, getting in their space, face, bumping, or other obnoxious behavior.  And dogs should be allowed to say "get out of my space".  

I know Nikki, spayed bitch, can be very testy with other dogs... I know when she's most likely to be grouchy and help her avoid those situations.  I also try to avoid setting my dogs up in situations that tests them and their tolerance level.  So, I avoid dog parks.  I avoid heavily used trails where other dogs are apt to be off leash, where dogs are obnoxious and pushy.  My male is intact and if there were to be a spat I may as well just staple a sign to his forehead that says "blame me" because that's what's going to happen, regardless of what truly transpired.  Just as a Pit is most likely to be blamed regardless of the situation.  I think using common sense is tantamount when you have dogs, but especially intact dogs, because:

PWCA

In addition, you also have the signal-to-noise ratio and ancedotal evidence- most irresponsible owners don't neuter, most irresponsible owners don't socialize, train, contain, or appropriately manage their dogs. Is their dogs' bad behavior the result of Teh Ebil Ballz (TM) or being poorly socialized, untrained, and let to run wild?

Sera_J

Liesje

Nikon has a short fuse with dogs getting in his face but this is not limited to either sex or whether the offending dog is intact. I have no intention of neutering him because to be frank, having a dog that puts up with rude behavior from strange dogs is not really high on my list of priorities, not even close to anything that would make me put him through surgery.

 

Well that's fair, IMO.  And the other thing is neutered or not he will probably not put up with that behavior anyway.  I look at my dog and judge him based on his reaction to other well behaved dogs.  Judging a dog based on how they respond to rude behavior is not fair grading, getting in their space, face, bumping, or other obnoxious behavior.  And dogs should be allowed to say "get out of my space". 

Exactly.  However I think there's plenty of people who think a dog that you can't take to the dog park is too "aggressive" or "reactive" and that neutering should somehow help.  I personally need and want a dog with an "edge".  I can't expect to have a dog that is genetically predisposed to asses a threat and be proactive about it, and keep a healthy awareness of his environment while being biddable to the handler, but somehow also be a dog who is social and submissive and forgiving basically to a fault.  The dog has always been that way, you could see it in certain things at three months, well before I'd consider neutering a dog I'd always planned to neuter.

Basically, I have no reason TO neuter my dog.  He is under my control and does what I ask.  He defers to me, respects and trusts me.  He is well behaved and social with people and with his "pack" of dogs.  He is trustworthy off leash and has never gone under, over, or through our fence even though he easily could.  I really do not care if he doesn't seek out strange dogs to play with or make friends with.  I do not know if he's aggressive specifically towards other males or other GSDs because I have no reason to put him in that scenario.  He is often off leash within feet of another intact dog but always in a training or competition setting where the dog is never asked to perform something we don't think he can do.  Twice he escaped from his car crate at training, the first time he came to the door of the building and waited for someone to open it.  The second time was outdoors and he came and found me on the field, left all the other dogs and people alone.  He passed the CGC and never had problems with the face-to-face dog greeting part of the test.  His long downs are great (which in SchH is performed with the owner 20 feet away, out of sight while the other dog does their entire routine including the fast recall) and his reporting to the judge (performed once on lead and once off, both with two dog-handler teams side by side) have been fine.

calliecritturs

No ... I didn't say a male kept intact is "looking to breed".  But I did say they are aware and there is an inate response.

When there is STIMULI..yes. I think the issue is your implication that this "innate response"...is constant. Is THAT what you are referring to? There are NEUTERED males who tie bitches for heavenssake. Neutering does not STOP a males interest in a bitch Callie...not always...not even often IMO...it simply eliminates his ability to IMPREGNATE her. Is having a neutered male in a home with intact bitches who cycle...who then tries to breed them...also cruel or mean?

And also, WHY does the label "mean" or "cruel" which you use...NOT apply to someone "doing something" with their dog? The dog is STILL suffering what you claim? Isn't cruelty or meanness rather an all encompassing thing? I mean if I kick my dog during WORK or just sitting in front of the TV...isn't that still MEAN? Do you honestly see breeding working or show dogs as being made to "suffer for the cause"? Many many show or working dogs will NEVER, be bred..or if they are...it may be only once in their lifetime...the point of keeping a dog intact is that you do not KNOW what you may wish to do...so if I hold a dog and show him for 2-3 years and keep him intact in case I want to special him or in case something nice comes up to breed to...make me a "mean" person? Is the dog a martyr for the cause here?

Pointed questions yes, but I did not bring up the topic of "having a dog intact as being mean or cruel...but only sometimes". The dog must surely feel the exact same way...whether he goes to a dog show every weekend...or not?

Liesje

Basically, I have no reason TO neuter my dog.  He is under my control and does what I ask.  He defers to me, respects and trusts me.  He is well behaved and social with people and with his "pack" of dogs.  He is trustworthy off leash and has never gone under, over, or through our fence even though he easily could.  I really do not care if he doesn't seek out strange dogs to play with or make friends with.

I agree100%. We've gotten into a few spats when other males try to hump him and while I wish other dogs wouldn't try to hump him I do not blame him for defending himself.  I just try to avoid situations where he's put into the position of having to tell another dog to get off of him... that's extremely rude behavior I think we'd all agree.

Liesje

However I think there's plenty of people who think a dog that you can't take to the dog park is too "aggressive" or "reactive" and that neutering should somehow help.

Yes, very true.  The thing is most people do not need the drive that those of us who work our dogs need.... they want their dogs, as you said "submissive to a fault."  But, you can't expect that when you get an Akita or a GSD or even a Weim!  You have to get the RIGHT dog and as Gina says, weigh early spay/neuter against potential health problems.  I think most people who go to dog parks do not have that type of temperament or we wouldn't have so many issues going there.  Most are normal dogs who get into a fight because of a socially retarded dog that comes in and the "normal" dog becomes the bad guy.  Granted there are a huge number of just plain idiots who show up with truly aggressive dogs who are trying to "socialize" their dogs or because "he only attacks other males." or however it is they rationalize things.  It boggles the mind.

And yes, Gina.  Logan has been picked on mercilessly by neutered males.  Not so much anymore, but that maybe because I limit his exposure to unknown dogs, it's just not worth the risk.

Sera_J

I agree100%. We've gotten into a few spats when other males try to hump him and while I wish other dogs wouldn't try to hump him I do not blame him for defending himself.  I just try to avoid situations where he's put into the position of having to tell another dog to get off of him... that's extremely rude behavior I think we'd all agree.

Yeah if a dog is going to come harass my dog, my reaction is to drop his leash!  I can't stand it when the offending dog is the one running at large and I am expected to restrain my dog who was minding his own business, which just adds more tension.  In training classes (other than SchH where for whatever reason people are generally more respectful of giving dogs space and being focused on training), I just tell people my dog doesn't like other dogs.  That may make it sound worse than it is, but I'd rather people just avoid him altogether, not only because he doesn't tolerate rudeness, but because I am there to train and work, not socialize my dog.

rwbeagles

Entire BREEDS, actually suffer from low libido or drive to breed...the males are not interested, AI's are done more often than not...etc. In fact I had a book once with many breeds in the back along with various genetic issues to look out for, and a bit on libido as well...anecdotal evidence collected by the author after speaking with people IN those breeds and quite a few rated a "low libido". It was very interesting to read thru.

What book was it? I'd be interested in it!! I'm a bit frustrated as I would like to have had another tie yesterday or today.  Logan refused.  Granted Sunday there was no hesitation. Lots of flirting and play, but there was intent. Yesterday he was able to go for a walk with their kid (repeat breeding) and a few other dogs along with the bitch he's breeding.  He would.... erm, let's say "check things out" (ahem) but, there wasn't that same intent.  More like a sniff and a "Ok... that's all good." and move on.  My mentor and friends have all said "That's good! She probably took." but, I must admit to feeling bad, they drove a long way to get here.  What do you consider "low libido"??

Hmm Lani you are asking me to remember stuff it HUUUUURRTS. LOL.

AH! it was aqua light seafomy aqua colored, and it had Goldens on the front...a dam and pups...looking at my shelves I no longer have it. Breeding Better Dogs, Successful Dog Breeding? something like that? LOL...

Low libido. I had a dog I would call low libido. He was INTIMIDATED by bitches, esp hussy's he would back away and tho he had SOME interest...he would only mount from the front...ONCE and if she hollered (who wouldn't I mean THAT costs extra!)...he'd not try again. I had to AI with him.

I think low libido to me, simply means a lack of interest, or such focus on the owner they are not even aware of what they are supposed to, maybe a really bitchy dog...doesn't leg lift, doesn't strut, doesn't have that "stallion" about him.

BUT it's not always on the dog...sometimes the bitches smell can be "off" like from a low grade infection...and that could account for a lot of refusals. Dominant bitches can turn some others off. One screamer can make even an experienced dog afraid to try again too.

Did you not want to do an AI with the bitch to cover her or is that something you aren't ready to try? LOL...

rwbeagles

AH! it was aqua light seafomy aqua colored, and it had Goldens on the front...a dam and pups...looking at my shelves I no longer have it. Breeding Better Dogs, Successful Dog Breeding? something like that? LOL...

Thanks for that helpful (or should I say slighly vague? :P LOL) answer Gina. LOL I'll see if I can find it :o)

rwbeagles

I think low libido to me, simply means a lack of interest, or such focus on the owner they are not even aware of what they are supposed to, maybe a really bitchy dog...doesn't leg lift, doesn't strut, doesn't have that "stallion" about him.

Fair enough.  Then I have no issues, I think. He's definitely a "stallion".... talk about a strut  If his head and tail got much higher his feet couldn't touch ground. LOL He likes to look good for the ladies ;)

rwbeagles

Did you not want to do an AI with the bitch to cover her or is that something you aren't ready to try? LOL...

I think both the bitch's owner and I are willing to trust him. We got a good tie.  Last time they were down (repeat breeding) he refused a last tie (after 3).  He's refused bitches after having a good tie or two and we've gotten pups.