Tail cutting and Ear Cutting

miranadobe

AgileGSD

tiffy

 I don't know about Cardis. Thats why I said Pembroke.

 Why would it be different?

They come from completely different blood lines.  The only thing they have in common other than general appearance

Since Cardis and Pems do have a very similar general appearance, why would one be at risk for having it's tail (over any other body part) trampled by livestock but the have no such issue? The breeds actually were interbred at one point in history.

Some pictures of undocked Pems:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

willowchow

If you get a breed that is normally cropped and/or docked does the vet ask you at the puppy visits if you want to get it done?  Or is it something you need to bring up yourself?  I'm just wondering how it's done because of the timing that it needs to be done in. 

Before Cher came along, we had been talking/meeting with potential dobe breeders. Every breeder that I spoke with had their pups docked & dewclaws removed at 2-3 days old. They also had the pups cropped, by their vet, at 7-8 weeks old. The pups were sent to their new homes after the ears had healed & sutures were removed. Obviously, the new owner was responsible for posting the ears so that they would be trained to stand.

Neither of my guys came from reputable breeders, & I had them cropped. With Bevo, I asked about cropping before the vet had an opportunity to ask. With Cher, we had been battling ear infections & our vet asked me if I had considered cropping in hopes that the infections would stop. When I said that it was something that I would consider, he gave me the number to a vet who did crops that he recommended. I contacted them, did an evaluation, & had her cropped.

AgileGSD

miranadobe

As a result of his debarking, he swallowed air trying to bark and bloated. 

 Considering that bloat is a huge problem with Dobes, I'm curious as to why the debarking was thought to be the cause with this individual.

In his particular case, it was the "barking".  He was frustrated because he'd "bark" constantly but a bark collar could not be used on him effectively, so he would continue to "bark" in his frustration and the vet believed that excess of "barking" led to his extra air in his gut, frustration added to his aggitated/stressed state that exacerbated the potential of torsion after the bloat. 

AgileGSD

Debarked dogs don't require near the aftercare and are not at near the risk for infection as dogs who have been cropped.

Gracie had very little need for "aftercare" after her ears were cropped, and that was 6 years ago, and not with lasers like they did for Cher.  The site healed in a matter of days on their own and the sutures fell out.  I'm not sure what folks think is the risk of infection in ear leathers that have been trimmed as opposed to any other cut that is sewn shut.  Debarking (vocal cordectomy) involves either going down the throat, or cutting through the neck of the dog to reach the tissue of the vocal cord.  Many debarked dogs will develop scar tissue as a result of the preferred surgery (voice box) that makes upper respiratory tract infections more common - something that lasts well beyond the recovery from the initial surgery.  But you don't see me lobbying to have it banned.  The only reason I bring it up is that people base opinions on perceptions and I find Dylan's case somewhat ironic.

willowchow

Do you any type of scars or anything on ears that have been done? 

Lori, neither of my guys have scars from their crops.

BEVOLASVEGAS

willowchow

Do you any type of scars or anything on ears that have been done? 

Lori, neither of my guys have scars from their crops.

nor Gracie

 Sorry to keep bombarding this thread with pics, but i think it's the easiest way to show...Josie doesn't have any scarring. I've seen bad crops with jagged edges though...you can see how her ear is nice and smooth. I will tell you i've never met anyone that has owned a cropped dog have anything negative to say about it.

 

Thanks guys!  Josie is a beautiful girl!

miranadobe

 In his particular case, it was the "barking".  He was frustrated because he'd "bark" constantly but a bark collar could not be used on him effectively, so he would continue to "bark" in his frustration and the vet believed that excess of "barking" led to his extra air in his gut, frustration added to his aggitated/stressed state that exacerbated the potential of torsion after the bloat. 

 Debarking doesn't prevent bark collars from being effective - that is how I kept the dog I did aftercare on quiet for 5 days (maybe that isn't what you meant though now that I think about it - maybe he barked through the collar). It sounds like he was barking out of stress/frustration, which can be a major trigger for bloat.

mirandadobe

Gracie had very little need for "aftercare" after her ears were cropped, and that was 6 years ago, and not with lasers like they did for Cher.  The site healed in a matter of days on their own and the sutures fell out.  I'm not sure what folks think is the risk of infection in ear leathers that have been trimmed as opposed to any other cut that is sewn shut.

 Of course there is risk of infection with any wound or surgery. My Collie developed a bad infection when he was neutered which started as a reaction to the sutures.

 

mirandadobe

 Debarking (vocal cordectomy) involves either going down the throat, or cutting through the neck of the dog to reach the tissue of the vocal cord.  Many debarked dogs will develop scar tissue as a result of the preferred surgery (voice box) that makes upper respiratory tract infections more common - something that lasts well beyond the recovery from the initial surgery. 

 I have never, ever known a debarked dog that has had their neck cut open. That may be how debarking was commonly done in the dark ages (and the reason that so many people are so blindly opposed to it still or have the idea that the dog's vocal chords are "removed";) but is not common practice today at all. It is actually a minor surgery compared to something like spaying which generally has good success if proper aftercare is done.

 A good article on debarking myths and facts: http://www.naiaonline.org/articles/archives/debark_qna.htm

 

 

AgileGSD

Of course there is risk of infection with any wound or surgery. My Collie developed a bad infection when he was neutered which started as a reaction to the sutures.

So, your dog experienced an infection more readily than the 4 posters here who have had their dogs ears cropped.  I have never, ever, even once met a person whose dog's sutures became infected after cropping.  Not a one.  In any breed.  Despite the risk of infection from any wound or surgery.

AgileGSD

I have never, ever known a debarked dog that has had their neck cut open. That may be how debarking was commonly done in the dark ages (and the reason that so many people are so blindly opposed to it still or have the idea that the dog's vocal chords are "removed";) but is not common practice today at all. 

  Every site I've seen claims otherwise - that the cut through the throat is preferable because there is actually a HIGHER risk of infection by going down the throat (oral) as opposed to the cut in the neck, and the likelihood of the dogs' cords regrowing so the dog regains the ability to bark.

AgileGSD

 It sounds like he was barking out of stress/frustration, which can be a major trigger for bloat.

   You're welcome to hypothesize about the dog, and I've said the stress/frustration of not being able to be "heard" by barking did likely contribute to his bloat.  In the end, I'll take the hypothesis of the vet who treated him before, during, and after his bloat.  If you'd like to continue discussing debarking, it should be in its own thread.  I'll repeat, the only reason I brought it up here was the particular dog who was left ears and tail intact in the name of "humane" laws.  As someone said earlier - laws don't make people do the right thing.  That dog was found as an emaciated stray.

miranadobe

So, your dog experienced an infection more readily than the 4 posters here who have had their dogs ears cropped.  I have never, ever, even once met a person whose dog's sutures became infected after cropping.  Not a one.  In any breed.  Despite the risk of infection from any wound or surgery.

 Ear cropping is no safer or riskier than any other surgery which involves anesthesia, incisions and sutures.

 

miranadobe

Every site I've seen claims otherwise - that the cut through the throat is preferable because there is actually a HIGHER risk of infection by going down the throat (oral) as opposed to the cut in the neck, and the likelihood of the dogs' cords regrowing so the dog regains the ability to bark.

 Regardless as to what the sites you looked at have claimed, I have known a lot of debarked dogs over the years and none were debarked by cutting through the throat. I have never even heard of a vet who offered that method of debarking, although they seem o be out there. The people I know who have debarked dogs are show people who are generally using very good vets and follow the aftercare procedures. I am not promoting debarking and have not had any of my dogs debarked. I just always find it strange that people who support cropping/docking/altering are so often without question opposed to debarking. They are all elective surgeries, all have risks and none are required for the average dog to be happy and healthy.

miranadobe

  You're welcome to hypothesize about the dog, and I've said the stress/frustration of not being able to be "heard" by barking did likely contribute to his bloat.  In the end, I'll take the hypothesis of the vet who treated him before, during, and after his bloat.

 Your vet was of the opinion that the dog was upset because he "couldn't be heard"? At any rate it sounds like he had a lot to be stressed about with being poorly cared for, abandoned, sitting in a shelter/rescue and I hope he found a nice home.

RidgebackGermansShep

Sorry to keep bombarding this thread with pics

Don't apologize.  I'm thrilled to get to see Josie!

Paige, I have a horse that cribs due to stress/boredom/frustration.  That sounds similar to what Dylan was doing as well.

AgileGSD

 The people I know who have debarked dogs are show people

Which might explain why they chose to go inside, rather than risk a suture scar.  I don't know. 

(Megan, I'm also glad to see pics of Miss Josie!) 

miranadobe

AgileGSD

 The people I know who have debarked dogs are show people

Which might explain why they chose to go inside, rather than risk a suture scar.  I don't know. 

 They "chose" to go inside because that is how the vets do it. Again, I have never heard of a vet who debarks by cutting the throat open, doesn't mean some don't but it certainly isn't the prefered method in modern times. Such a surgery would likely take much, much longer to heal.

 I would assume most vets could refuse to perform a dock or any other procedure they didn't want to do it, and are trying to get a law passed so they can just say "no, it's against the law", because that makes it easier to say no.  A sign on the wall could handle that. The question is , how much legal interference do you want in caring for your dog.  My dog came with a docked tail and dew claws removed.  I don't know if she could even walk with a tail waving as fast as that stub waves. I know a full tail would be really fun to clean after a day in the field.  She normally wears a short hunter cut, and that gets interesting to clean.

From what I have read, there is some pain involved, even at 2 or 3 days for tail docking, but the pups are also reacting to separation from Mom and the family and settle down to nursing quickly.  A minor experience that is not remembered by the dog but one  that is becoming politically incorrect.  I don't know who drives the concept of "politically correct", but they never seem to ask for my opinion. Sometimes I worry about the PC police showing up and telling me I do everything wrong, and my probably anti PC reply.  It seems that the PC groups have become very adept at forcing the majority to follow the will of minority groups.

There is an article about the value of spay/neuter surgery that reviews data about what the surgery does for the animal. I found it on a google search: Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs
                                                     Laura J. Sanborn, M.S.
Docking and dew removal are very low risk procedures, especially as compared to spay. The only ear trims I would oppose are the home made scissors versions done on fighting dogs by non professionals without painkillers or antiseptics.

A lot of dogs are still working at their original jobs.  My immediate neighbors have seven dog among us, and 6 are used to hunt and the seventh bites ankles and runs from her owner.  All doing what they were bred to do.  If you are not actively involved with hunting or farming, or activities that use these breeds, you probably won't see these dogs working and wont see the need for tail docking or dew claw removal. 

If he surgery doesn't hurt the dog and makes it more desirable to the owner and has a functional basis, why not.
 

I've been reading through the replies, and I thought I would put my two cents in now.

I do not currently own a breed that requires or suggests that it be docked or cropped. However, I am not against it. If it's done with consideration of the dog's well being at the forefront. Similarly, I'm not against the removal of dew claws, and it was suggested for Misha, but since his are attached, not floating, I decided to keep them -- understanding the slightly higher level of maintainence and observation I would have to do with them. At first, though she isn't my dog at all, I was confused about Cher's crop (I might have missed a thread or something), but then when I thought about what she'd already been through, I figured the decision was made because she was having some type of problem with her ears. You can't say that decision was only aesthetic. If Misha was prone to painful chronic ear infections, I'd certainly look at all my options for alleviating his pain. Dogs with thin, whip-like tails that are prone to breaking... I understand why it might be better for them to be docked. When you make a decision based on breed standards alone, I would think that perhaps you aren't considering it the way you should.

My uncle has an APBT. Her ears are cropped (and yes, I can see suture marks, but who knows who did her crop). Her puppies ears? He didn't have them cropped. I like the look of both, but I wouldn't go out of my way to have an APBT with cropped or uncropped ears.