Tail cutting and Ear Cutting

tiffy

 Can you imagine a Pembroke with a tail, herding cows? That tail would probably be trampled at some point and then the dog would have a very painful amputation. In this case, the tail is for function, not fashion.

 Do Cardigans often suffer tail injuries herding? What makes the tail more likely to be trampled than the dog? Most natural Pems I have seen have a fairly high tail set/carriage and even if they don't, dogs rarely just leave their tail dragging on the ground while working.

 Don't Cardigans herd cattle too?

 For the record, I don't consider C/D anymore or less human than any other surgery--just mostly pointless.  I don't see a good reason to put a dog under anesthetic for something that is 99% of the time cosmetic.  Plus, I do prefer to see dogs with their complete ears and tails.   Yes, sometimes tail docking does have a function.  However in the other cases I wish people would just be honest about the procedure--if it really were about preventing ear infections then cockers and labs would be walking around with fighting crops.  It's done the *vast* majority of the time because the standard in the US says it should and people like the way it looks.

I've seen Cardis herding cows, bison, and other large animals. I've never seen any of them, or heard of them, experiencing tail injuries.

 I don't know about Cardis. Thats why I said Pembroke.

tiffy

 I don't know about Cardis. Thats why I said Pembroke.

 Why would it be different?

.stacer.

I won't sit here and say that Timmy probably would have had many tail injuries if he wasn't docked, because quite honestly, he probably wouldn't have.

 Rotts have thicker tails with more hair covering than, say, Dobes, so it's likely you're right that he wouldn't.

My first Dobe had a natural tail which he injured repeatedly.  It's one of those things (as others on this board can attest to- sillysally is one with her Jack and his "happy tail" ;) that onces it breaks open it is more difficult to get it healed up.  Although Jack's tail is not whip-like, has plenty of hair covering it, and his pics show a pretty mild incident compared to the "happy tail" I've seen.  Not to mention those dogs who actually break bones in the tails.

My same first Dobe also had natural ears, which he also injured and had hematomas on the tips more than once in his life.  Again, he would shake them and break open the hematomas, splattering blood, and they were difficult to heal up.

Most bloody Dobe in rescue I remember was Dylan, who came from the UK, where he was left intact for ears and tails.  He incurred the same ear and tail injuries- splattering blood inside his crate or kennel on a regular basis.  (Of course, he also got ear infections, but whatever.)  Meanwhile, that same dog who had his ears and tails left intact as mandated by the folks who determined it was inhumane to have them docked/cropped....?  Well, that dog was debarked.  As a result of his debarking, he swallowed air trying to bark and bloated.  We saved him, but because of his tail and the fact he looked less like the typical Dobe that Dobe enthusiasts seek, he remained in rescue for longer than he should have.  I have no patience for debarking and have yet to hear a viable excuse - pharoah hounds don't convince me, either.  I would think that is far more invasive with quantifiable damage done to a dog verus cropping or docking, all for a human convenience.  Tell me how that is justifiable?

"  The Cardigan Corgi on the other hand has a long bushy tail and the different requirements have been written into breed standards with time."

I have never seen a Pembroke with a natural tail. Cardis and Pembrokes are two different breeds, so comparing the two is redundant.

AgileGSD

tiffy

 I don't know about Cardis. Thats why I said Pembroke.

 Why would it be different?

Do you any type of scars or anything on ears that have been done? 

 Thank you, Paige.

 But then I have to ask, why not crop and dock all dogs with potential issues then?

Jack had a hella ear infection last year--like HORRIBLE.  After what we thought was you garden variety ear infection got worse we had it cultured and found out that he had drug resistant strep.  It took 8 weeks of oral batrel and 10 weeks of in-the-ear batrel to clear it up.  His care involved twice daily ear cleanings, the first few weeks of which involved him whimpering and crying and blood on the cotton swabs every time we cleaned.  There are many labs with ear issues.

Same with the tail--that thread was the second or third time in his life he had gotten "happy tail."  Honestly, I don't believe that the covering of hair he has (which is actually quite thick for a lab) made much of a difference.  His tail is not whip-like, but club-like (and since the scar tissue developed mace-like), and he puts his whole body into wagging and spends a remarkable amount of time wagging.  Now Sally, who has a whip-like tail that has much less hair covering than Jack has never had a tail issue....

 If avoiding injury/infection were the primary reason for modern cropping and docking, then it would only make sense that all breeds with whip-like tails and floppy ears would be docked and cropped, but that obviously is not the case. 

I can pretty much guarantee you that when I get my next lab puppy if I tried to have him docked and cropped (assuming the breeder would allow it, which would not happen, and assuming I could find a vet that would do it, which would not happen), peoples' reactions would not be positive ones at all--from lab people or any dog people.  But, if I were to do the same thing with the same justification with my dobe pup, nobody would think a thing about it...

I'm not going to tell people they are cruel if they C/D or that they legally should be banned from doing it, but I don't buy for a second that it just all about preventing ear infections either.

BTW--We found a great way to deal with happy tail if anyone's interested.....

I didn't even get an option on whether i wanted Jo's ears cropped or not. My breeder will absolutely not sell a pup that's ears have not been cropped. The breeder has her vet do the litter at 8 weeks, and they can go home a few weeks later when the ears are healed. If i bought a dobe from a BYB then i wouldn't take them to get their ears cropped, but all the breeders i would consider would have the whole litter cropped prior. Plus, outlaw the people who are doing it correctly with anesthesia, and you're gonna get a bunch of freaks doing it in their backyard with rusty scissors. We all know bad people do not follow law- why punish the people who are doing it correctly?

and my girl has VERY expressive ears...

up

sweet

 My friend's dobe...annoyed/relaxed ears

more annoyed ears...

sillysally

I can pretty much guarantee you that when I get my next lab puppy if I tried to have him docked and cropped (assuming the breeder would allow it, which would not happen, and assuming I could find a vet that would do it, which would not happen), peoples' reactions would not be positive ones at all--from lab people or any dog people. 

That's because a Lab's tail serves a purpose as a rudder in the water - regardless if your dog is currently used for his "original" purpose of hunting, I can bet anything that he LOVES the water.  I explained it before in my post last year...  http://forum.dog.com/forums/p/91399/730189.aspx#730189 

 "Consider the structure of a labrador's long tail versus a whippets.  One is thick, heavy, and covered with dense hair while the other is thin and whip-like with the same fine hair that covers its body.  Neither of these breeds are cropped because their tails serve a working function for the job they were bred to perform.  For a Lab, that includes retrieving out of water, where the tail serves as an excellent rudder, even in fast currents.  For a whippet, it's believed the tail serves to balance and act as a rudder when the dog races after rabbits. 

Now consider that a Doberman's natural tail is somewhere between the two - not thick and covered with dense hair, but not thin or particularly elegant.  The Doberman was bred as a personal protection guard dog.  Not built for high speed races after rabbits, nor long swims through a river.  As someone mentioned earlier, the Doberman appearance was designed to be inherently intimidating to human assailants, and the lack of extra appendages (long tail/ears) also gave less for an attacker to grab onto.  The lack of tail serves a function in this breed's work."

My point is that your dog's tail serves a purpose and was designed to serve that purpose.  My dog's tail was not.  Her hearing may or may not be enhanced by the cropping, since being able to hear an intruder would have been part of her purpose, but that's hypothesis.  Anyway, I have said before that I had my dog's ears done because of the look.  Even though I have experience with houndy ears and hematomas. 

My own Cockers had ear infections, too, and what I find really disheartening is that people will complain about Dobes and while questioning the legitimacy of ear cropping to mitigate ear infections, suggest they should breed in a bobbed tail and *** ear.  Yet nothing is said for Cockers to have the same.  Cockers have a prominent reputation for huge incidents of ear infections.  WHY are we letting THAT happen?  If their ear cartilege could stand, maybe the argument could be made that they should be cropped (although that would be completely counter to their current ear leather which is deliberately floppy, and I think a futility both in their ear structure and the ideals of Cocker fanciers who PREFER THE LOOK of floppy ears.)  

miranadobe

As a result of his debarking, he swallowed air trying to bark and bloated. 

 Considering that bloat is a huge problem with Dobes, I'm curious as to why the debarking was thought to be the cause with this individual.

miranadobe

 I would think that is far more invasive with quantifiable damage done to a dog verus cropping or docking, all for a human convenience.  Tell me how that is justifiable?

  Debarked dogs don't require near the aftercare and are not at near the risk for infection as dogs who have been cropped. I have never had a dog debarked but being around a good number who were and doing aftercare on one debarked dog made me realize that it is not nearly as horrible as people make it out to be. I have seen several dogs hours after their debark and they are eating and drinking without an issue and acting perfectly normal. The aftercare consists of anti-inflammatory medication and preventing them from barking as much as possible for the first 5 days.

 I personally am hesitant to perform any elective surgery on my own dogs. I doubt I would be able to have a puppy cropped because I would worry about the risks of surgery for a cosmetic surgery. But I won't suggest it is wrong to have elective surgeries properly done by a knowledgable vet. Such things should be the choice of the dog's owner and IMO should not be outlawed or mandated for the supposed "great good".