"Pedigree dogs exposed"

sillysally

So because YOU made a choice about where your next dog came from based on your bad experiences anyone who makes a different choice is therefore wrong and selfish....right....I can see where this is going now.....

Jack's temperament and outlook through his ordeals has more than justified buying a dog from a good breed with a known back round.  He went through painful physical therapy, frustrating crate rest, a hella ear infection where he had to go through very VERY painful (whimpering, bleeding) ear cleanings and not one sign of aggression.  He hasn't once so much as raised his lip at anything we've had to do.  The vet confessed to me that she was quite concerned that he would be hard to deal with due to having negative medical experiences but he LOVES the vet's office.  Actually, ALL the vets who have dealt with him have been impressed with how he handled the experience.  He gets along awesomely with Sally, annoys my cats but has a low enough prey drive that it goes no further than that, adores children--even obnoxious annoying children, is a peace-maker at the dog park, etc. 

I went with his breed because of temperament and I went with a breeder specifically because we preferred a puppy due to the temperament of our current dog (my husband would have preferred an adult dog but we both thought Sally would adjust better the younger the dog was, and we were right), and in this area we have a lot of issue with labs with iffy temperaments-lab bites are not uncommon here.  In addition, I wanted to compete in agility, etc, but the elbow thing made that out of the question. 

I will not apologize for having specific expectations for a dog and therefore going with a reputable breeder whose dogs I had info on rather than going to a shelter. 

Obviously, things like temperament matter a LOT more to me than they do you.  My insurance doesn't allow me to have a dog that bites.  One bite and we lose the insurance or we lose the dog--then try to somehow find homeowner's insurance with a pit bull mix all over again.  But even if insurance were not an issue, I would NOT have a dog in my house that had bitten three people.  It just would not happen.

If wanting to do right by my current dog, my current and future family, and the dog coming into my household makes me a selfish person, then I guess that's what I am.... 

 If temperament is so important to you then you would most likely be better off with dog that has been temperment tested by a good rescue organization.  Buying a puppy and expecting it to grow up to match your checklist of personality traits is like gambling.  Besides, a dog's temperament with people and other animals has a lot more to do with envinronmental factors and socialization rather than genetics. 

Everything people are saying here about what is important in a dog as a family pet is available in rescue/shelter dogs.  I still have yet to see one thing in the posts of this thread that can only be found in a purebred dog from a breeder.  Honestly, I think this whole idea that purebred dogs from "reputable" breeders are healthier, have better temperments etc etc... comes from breed club and AKC propaganda.  Especially the health argument - it is RIDICULOUS.  People breeding dogs whose faces are so smashed in they can't breathe, heads too large to fit in a birth canal and bodies so big their hearts can't keep them alive for more than 8 years and have growih problems unless you feed them a special food, dogs with eyes popping out of their heads, dogs so unnaturally small their teeth are too big for their mouths and end up infected, dogs with backs so long that 20% suffer with disc disease (and yes I have one of them).  Why people here seem to have no problem with this, yet rant about labradoodles and alpha rolls is completely illogical to me.

I still have yet to see one thing in the posts of this thread that can only be found in a purebred dog from a breeder.

You cannot do a Koerung with a shelter dog.

Besides, a dog's temperament with people and other animals has a lot more to do with envinronmental factors and socialization rather than genetics.

And we're supposed to take the word of someone openly condemning breeding as the expert on genetics? 

Why would you blame your dogs temperament on the breeder if environmental factors matter more?

jenns

DougB

You don't get to make decisions for me.  You can argue, present your case if I choose to listen.  But I decide for myself.  There is no way to force me to do what you want. 

Well obviously.  I can't force someone not to use choke collars or alpha roll their dogs, but it doesn't mean I can't oppose their actions or think they are making the wrong choice, or try to offer my viewpoint so maybe they will change their actions to one that is more ethical.

 Buying a well bred puppy is not unethical.

jenns

DougB

I respect the job rescues and fosters do.  I have raised a few animals that I rescued, but I do not work with an organization .   I don't know if I could stand the frustration and misery they frequently encounter

Well they probably would have to deal with a lot less frustration and misery if people stopped buying from breeders.

  You seem to have a lot of misplaced anger towards breeders and people who want dogs from breeders. It seems as if to you, that is the main problem and they are vastly responsible for the death of animals in shelters. Do you totally fail to see how what is acceptable or not within the shelter community has far greater impact on the issue?

 The shelter world unfortunately seems to be heavily influenced by the AR groups, especially by the HSUS. The HSUS benefits from animals dying in shelters, as sad as that is to think about. They must continue to promote the idea of "overpopulation" and dogs being killed because there aren't enough homes, even if the facts don't really support that. For them, a solution to the problem would mean millions lost in donations. They encourage shelters to push their agenda on potential adopters and that killing animals is better than allowing someone who has an intact animal or does/doesn't have a fence to take them home. They encourage an "us against them" stance between shelters and the public. They not only defend the killing of shelter animals as the only solution but often encourage it.

 Then the issues which have already been brought up such as overly restrictive requirements for adopters, little to no attempt to adopt dogs out, importing dogs from other countries and buying/reselling dogs.  So I can't help but ask why the attack on breeders and people who chose to buy dogs from breeders? They should be the least of your concerns. HSUS and their effect on the shelter community is a very real issue. And if you honestly feel that the problem is "overpopulation", the thousands of dogs brought here from other countries every year should be totally unacceptable. And if you feel there aren't enough homes, why not try to change the perception that it is ok to turn people away for trivial reasons. Those issues are all a much more real concern for shelter dogs. And before you make claims otherwise, this isn't saying all shelters are high kill, importing, brokering or toeing the AR party line. There are some great shelters and rescue groups out there. However, it is saying there are more than enough issues that need fixed within the shelter community and those issues much more directly affect shelter dogs than your arguement against breeders.

 You never answered my question as to if you feel it would be best if dogs were to be phased out of our lives, since some people are irresponsible with them.

jenns

If temperament is so important to you then you would most likely be better off with dog that has been temperament tested by a good rescue organization.  Buying a puppy and expecting it to grow up to match your checklist of personality traits is like gambling.  Besides, a dog's temperament with people and other animals has a lot more to do with environmental factors and socialization rather than genetics. 

Really? you really think this? I will give you some background. My parents had GSD's when I was a child, they bred and raised one litter for the breeder in an agreement. The stud was classified as "ATTACK TRAINED" (term from the 60's) but he was also titled and my current dog is named after him, because of this dog I feel in love with the traits of the breed.  In addition to that dog was a female that my mother found tied to a tree in a park. That dog loved my mother with a devotion that cannot be explained. While all dogs have different personalities, you cannot argue that certain breeds do indeed have certain traits, and this is what makes them the breed they are and why people love them.

jenns

Everything people are saying here about what is important in a dog as a family pet is available in rescue/shelter dogs.

They sure are, to bad some are so hard nosed that they fail to see the forest for the tree's. I purchased my first personal Shepherd at age 31. She was from a party that had breed their female that they had taken in from a family that could not control her in an apartment setting, though she herself was not titled, she did have health testing and the owner went back to HER breeder for a recommendation on a stud. Sadly she left us in 2006, she was almost 11 years of age. She was a great ambassador for her breed. Outside of health issues in the last 18 months of her life she was perfectly healthy. By the way, her health issue's were caused in a car accident, not due to her breeding. Now the vet was blunt, each and every day was a blessing, knowing this we embarked on a campaign to find a good breeder in this state, we looked at a few and decided to go the rescue route....HA!

We were stonewalled at every turn. We did not have a fenced in yard, we lived on a busy street, we rented, yada, yada, yada.... Not one consideration that I had been raised with the breed, currently owned the breed and had for 11 years.......So don't sit there sprouting off about not enough people try or even consider it. Your wrong. Flat out wrong.

And for the record, we looked at shelter dogs too. In fact were actively looking when she passed. I had several dogs as a child and not all of them were from a breeder. I had icy as a child, some long haired mop. then there was Duchess, a cockapoo, then Kord and Lady, then there was Heather the collie and Ralph the old English sheepdog, both rescues, and lets not forget Merlin the wonder dog, Brussels griffin and sheltie mix. then Babe....and now Kord. Who my mother and sister bought for us from the breeder we had been talking to but had not made a firm decision on.

Babe was the dog I needed when we moved here, she was the ground breaker in meeting new friends and getting to know our neighbors, she was the dog we needed then. Kord is different, he is the exact opposite of her and I did nothing different in the raising.  That is the personality part. The trait part is that I can predict him. But he still has the traits I love and he is the dog I need now.

jenns

Honestly, I think this whole idea that purebred dogs from "reputable" breeders are healthier, have better temperaments etc etc... comes from breed club and AKC propaganda.

And every add you see in the paper states...AKC........all that means is your dog is a purebred, not that its going to be healthy and sound. And I think anyone who breeds to improve the health issue or tests before breeding to make sure there is none, is a better shot than someone who does not. And just a FYI, my dog does have a health issue, the cause is unknown, time will tell.

Rescue dogs and shelter dogs are not health pure, some are just as bad, if not worse than the purebred. Every dog you get is a risk.

Don't blame the responsible breeders for the shelter dogs dying. Their dogs don't end up in shelters. And even if you do blame them, all it portrays is an ignorance to the value of having people who do care about the future of dogs and their health. Because if we stop breeding, and just adopt dogs from shelters.....you might as well throw the baby out with the bathwater and say "come one, come all, breed your mutts to whatever you want because we're all just adopting shelter dogs so it's okay!!!!". Sorry, but that sounds rather backwards to me.

Yes, adoption is important. I value it, I promote it, and I have helped many families find new family members there. But I will also not hesitate to refer a great breeder if that is what the family's needs warrant. There's no cookie cutter approach here. And preaching that everyone who breeds or gets their dog from a breeder (despite that that person may have more rescue dogs than their breeder dog) isn't going to futher your position...it's only going to cause a huge wall to go up and people will tune you out altogether.

I am heavily involved in animal shelters and welfare. I've been a strong volunteer with my province's only humane society for some time now. I foster for them as well when the need arises. However, all three of my dogs are purebreds, from breeders. My next dog will also likely be from a breeder. Someday, I do want a rescue (or several). But, now is not that time, therefore I will not rescue a dog at this point in my life. But that will not stop me from fostering and helping shelter dogs find new homes.

Jenns,   

While I appreciate your passion towards rescue, I fail to see how my decision to breed, or not breed my titled border collies will impact the incident of pets in pounds or rescue. The focus needs to not be on me, but on all the "accidents", and irresponsible owners.

For the record, all four of my girls are spayed, but I still have both pups from our last litter. Glory and Jodi did not take homes from two shelter dogs!! You are comparing apples and oranges. In our small town there are constant mutt litters being born. Now I could rescue some of these pups, neuter them, find them good homes, and other litters would be born in the meanwhile. Yes, those pups I saved would probable have good homes, but 20 more would fill the void. That is the where the problem is!!

If EVERY ethical breeder stopped breeding tomorrow, in 10 years there would still be just as many dogs in the shelters. The problem is the irresponsible owners. Somehow we need to teach people about caring for their pets and making the lifetime commitment to them that we on this forum take for granted.

 I've been following this a while and I think I should comment.  First off, I own 5 purebred breeder dogs, two of whom are show dogs.  I also have worked in a kill shelter for years and a no kill shelter as well.  I was an adoption counselor for the kill shelter.  Anyways...

 First thing that is important is stating I honestly wouldn't have 5 dogs if they weren't purebred papillons from good breeders.  I'm sure that will make some people mad but it's true.  I only have 5 dogs because of my love for the breed and my desire to show them.  I doubt I would have as many of anything else.  So buying them did not take away from shelter dogs at all because if it weren't purebred papillons, I would probably only have 2 dogs, which is what I did for years until I found the breed and got hooked. 

 I actually did look for a rescue for my last one (who was just going to be a pet/sports dog).  Well, I ran into a ton of road blocks despite my experience.  Despite the fact that I was a long time owner of the breed (had 7), shown them, dog owner for a long time, etc I was denied by every rescue except one.  Why?  College student, renter, no yard, intact dogs, etc.  Even if I'd been able to go to a breed specific rescue, they get more applications than dogs and a lot of their dogs are puppymill survivors.  They put disclaimers on their sites stating that puppymill dogs are not for everyone and they will refer people to breeders many times.  The one that approved of me only had a dog available that had an extensive bite record and that was not something I wanted to chance.  I went to the local shelter and all they had in the way of small breeds were terriers and chihuahuas which no offense to owners of those breeds are just not my kind of dogs.  So I went with a breeder dog and she's perfect.  Everything I wanted.  My next dog will likely be a rescue border collie because I can find what I need in BCs in rescue fairly easily (and hopefully I'll have a yard then).

 Having worked in the shelter system a long time and mentored with breeders (whom all are very active in breed rescue btw) I see a lot of problems in the shelter systems.  They DO shoot themselves in the foot sometimes and things need to change.  I know this is a hot topic but there is a lot that goes on wrong in shelters that is preventing more dogs from being adopted.  I could go on and on about the shelter I worked at for example but between policies and lack of effort there was a 75% euth rate.  It did not need to be anywhere that high at all.  If the shelter was run better and utilizing volunteers instead of turning them away, they could likely lower that 50% easily.  Luckily new people have taken over and the city council is trying to pass different regulations, but we'll see.  A lot of the shelter problems could be fixed with an overhaul of the shelters themselves.

 Also having worked in shelters in many parts of the country there isn't an overpopulation problem but rather there is a retention problem.  Many areas do not get in puppies or not often.  We do but they're always adopted easily.  The problem is people don't think and research getting a dog like they should.  People see dogs as disposable and then they throw them out once they present problems.  It really in the end doesn't matter WHERE someone gets their dog (yeah even a BYB) as long as more people start KEEPING their dogs for their lifetime instead of them bouncing around the shelter system. 

jenns

Besides, a dog's temperament with people and other animals has a lot more to do with envinronmental factors and socialization rather than genetics. 

Maybe I am just reading the whole exchange wrong, but the reason a PUPPY was chosen was surely because that is the dog taht Sally would more readily accept, being dog-selective.  The reason a breeder was chosen was so that the lines and background could be thoroughly researched.  You won't get the luxury of both of those in rescue.

Let's say we all stopped buying from breeders and only adopted from rescue.  Will we end up with less dogs in shelters in future?  No, I don't think so.  

I think that "allowing" good breeders to breed more litters to accommodate demand would be a good thing, provided they could still take them all back if needs be.  That, and shelters changing to allow more dogs to be adopted out - and STAY adopted - would mean that the "puppy farms", BYBs and the "oops litter" breeders would be squeezed out of the market.  Where do you suppose those shelter dogs COME from?  Might it be from puppy farms, BYBs and oops litters?  Eliminate those sources with consumer power and we have only "good breeders" left.  Who TAKE BACK unwanted dogs..... thus putting a fair few shelters out of business as well.

If every person only acquired their dog from a reputable source, the unreputable sources would dry up...

If only puppies weren't so danged cute!

Liesje

Besides, a dog's temperament with people and other animals has a lot more to do with envinronmental factors and socialization rather than genetics.

And we're supposed to take the word of someone openly condemning breeding as the expert on genetics? 

Why would you blame your dogs temperament on the breeder if environmental factors matter more?

I was just wondering the exact same thing.

Chuffy

If every person only acquired their dog from a reputable source, the unreputable sources would dry up... 

Exactly.

And if those who did get a dog did a little more research choosing the the right breed for them. I hate seeing couch potato people owning an energetic, active breed, like the German Shorthair Pointer or a Lab or a BC, then blaming the "hyper, wired, crazy" dog for destroying the legs on your table.

 And only buying from reputable sources means you have more knowledge at your disposal and are more prepared for what the dog might do, because the REPUTABLE breeder (or shelter) will HELP you with pre- and post-sale advice.... Or suggest other, more appropriate breeds.... all the while educating, educating, educating....

To me, that is the crux of the difference between an ethical source, and a non-ethical one.  One is just keen to further their own agenda (in the case of unethical breeders, making money) whereas the other genuinely cares and wants you to walk away with more knowledge, so that WHEREVER you get a dog, you will be more likely (and more able) to retain it.

Chuffy

 And only buying from reputable sources means you have more knowledge at your disposal and are more prepared for what the dog might do, because the REPUTABLE breeder (or shelter) will HELP you with pre- and post-sale advice.... Or suggest other, more appropriate breeds.... all the while educating, educating, educating....

Exactly .

 It annoys me beyond belief that some shelters claim to want all dogs to have a home, but they will turn a home down flat because, say, the owners work full time, not thinking that the people will just open the paper and pick a cute puppy, or a "free to good home", regardless of the source - because they don't know any better.  I strongly believe that poor shelters are JUST as much at fault as poor breeders for the number of dogs dying for want of homes.  Reputable breeders are not at fault at all for this despicable problem.  And of course irresponsible owners carry a large portion of the blame.

Reputable breeders are also not at fault for the poor health of many pedgree dogs out there either - to the contrary, they are doing their best to help their respective breeds move away from these problems.  To paint all breeders with the same brush and to cry that all breeding should be stopped is foolish, as to do that would be to do a disservice to dogs as a species ad would play right into PETA's hands.

And what annoys me is that usually the people preaching to me about adopting dogs are often the least active in shelters and rescues including everyone I know in the GSD community who not only spend countless hours maintaining their dogs and their breed but pulling shelter dogs, arranging rescue transport, fostering, volunteering, etc.  Just because someone adopted their dog from a shelter, or made a mistake with a crappy breeder and now changed their mind does not give them the right to stand on a pedestal and make assumptions about anyone else and their level of involvement in their breed.