"Pedigree dogs exposed"

Kim_MacMillan

Their dogs don't end up in shelters.

Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. The shelter near me just got a min. poodle from a reputable breeder a few states away. It was surrendered for biting children. It is unlikely that a reputable breeder's dog will wind up in shelters, it does not mean it does not happen.

tenna

Kim_MacMillan

Their dogs don't end up in shelters.

 

Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. The shelter near me just got a min. poodle from a reputable breeder a few states away.

I don't call that a reputable breeder.  We clearly have different definitions/expectations when we hear the term, so I doubt we're going to agree.

tenna

The shelter near me just got a min. poodle from a reputable breeder a few states away. It was surrendered for biting children. It is unlikely that a reputable breeder's dog will wind up in shelters, it does not mean it does not happen.

I don't think this qualifies as a reputable breeder as far as how most here use the term.  Having a reputation as a breeder doesn't make one a responsible breeder.  Responsible is probably a better term for what I consider a person who should be breeding dogs.

Chuffy

I don't call that a reputable breeder.  We clearly have different definitions/expectations when we hear the term, so I doubt we're going to agree.

What about my story makes it seem like this this could not be a reputable breeder? The fact the dog was now, after 8 years, several states away? The original owner committed suicide and the family adopted the dog. Just like in a shelter environment, there is never a 100% guarantee, no matter how much screening you do for potential buyers/adopters, that nothing 'bad' will ever happen to the dog.

Of course, crap can happen.  A breeder can't do anything for a dog if they don't know about it. Nothing is fool proof and things go wrong.  With shelter adoptions and with breeder sales, there are never any guarantees that a dog won't someday, somehow end up in a shelter.  I am all for adopting dogs and promote it loudly and often to people who ask me about getting a dog. I talk to them extensively to find out their level of dog experience.  I have talked people out of getting a dog from any source.  I also tell them about buying a purebred dog and the various advantages and things to look out for when considering that option. I think people should have a choice without being made to feel guilty.

JackieG

Of course, crap can happen.  A breeder can't do anything for a dog if they don't know about it. Nothing is fool proof and things go wrong.  With shelter adoptions and with breeder sales, there are never any guarantees that a dog won't someday, somehow end up in a shelter.  I am all for adopting dogs and promote it loudly and often to people who ask me about getting a dog. I talk to them extensively to find out their level of dog experience.  I have talked people out of getting a dog from any source.  I also tell them about buying a purebred dog and the various advantages and things to look out for when considering that option. I think people should have a choice without being made to feel guilty.

I'm not trying to make anyone feel guilty. I'm merely pointing out that, on occasion, dogs from responsible, reputable,  breeders have wound up in shelters, as someone said that dogs from a responsible breeder will never wind up in a shelter. I said that's untrue, it's happened before, it will happen again. It's just unlikely, not impossible.

tenna

Chuffy

I don't call that a reputable breeder.  We clearly have different definitions/expectations when we hear the term, so I doubt we're going to agree.

 

What about my story makes it seem like this this could not be a reputable breeder?

The fact that the dog ended up in a shelter.  Had the breeder been MY kind of reputable (ethical is a better term I think), there would have been a take back policy in place for the life of the dog, regardless of where s/he was now. 

If the breeder were ethical, this sounds like an unusual enough case so as to be remarkable.  Nothing and no one is infallible.... that goes without saying.

As it IS so unlikely, I still don't see how responsible breeders are contributing to the number of dogs in shelters... the number they do "contribute" is negligible. (sp?)

Chuffy

The fact that the dog ended up in a shelter.  Had the breeder been MY kind of reputable (ethical is a better term I think), there would have been a take back policy in place for the life of the dog, regardless of where s/he was now.

I don't think you are listening to my story. The breeder DID have a take back policy. It was the fact the owner who committed suicide did not verbalize that to his extended family before he passed away. It was *not* the people who took on his responsiblity's fault that they didn't know they could have given the dog back to the breeder.

tenna

I'm merely pointing out that, on occasion, dogs from responsible, reputable,  breeders have wound up in shelters, as someone said that dogs from a responsible breeder will never wind up in a shelter. I said that's untrue, it's happened before, it will happen again. It's just unlikely, not impossible.

Agree.

Well, the easy thing to do would be for the shelter to contact the breeder and the breeder to come take responsibility for the dog.  That is what any reputable, responsible, ethical breeder has done and will do.  If the breeder will not take responsibility for the dog, then I no longer consider them responsible or ethical.  A few of my breeder's dogs have had to be re-homed for various reasons.  She always takes them back and keeps them, or keeps them until she can find a new, better home.  If the breeder is never notified, I don't see how they can be blamed.  However many breeders microchip all of their puppies and keep their name and contact information with the chip (most chips allow you to have 2-3 contacts listed) so that if a dog gets passed around b/c something happens to the owner and the breeder is never notified, the shelter can scan the chip and get their info.

I won't say that dogs from good breeders never end up in a shelter.  I will say that dogs from good breeders never knowingly remain in a shelter/rescue.

     So? Did that breeder make arrangements to get the dog back to them? I assume the shelter contacted this person. A commitment to take a dog back is a commitment! This story should have a happy ending right? If the breeder in question is a reputable breeder.

     Same with the breeder of your biting dog. What is the breeder doing to help you deal with this issue? Do you really know what a reputable breeder is? It isn't just about having two purebred dogs and letting them have pups.

I believe tenna said that the original puppy/dog owner DIED and the family who adopted the dog didn't know the breeder or of any agreement to take the dog back.  I've known breeders who lost track of pups they sold, not through any fault of their own but because as tenna said, crap happens.

jenns

 If temperament is so important to you then you would most likely be better off with dog that has been temperment tested by a good rescue organization.  Buying a puppy and expecting it to grow up to match your checklist of personality traits is like gambling.  Besides, a dog's temperament with people and other animals has a lot more to do with envinronmental factors and socialization rather than genetics. 

 I have always had the best luck with dogs I have raised from puppies, they grow up thinking everything in our household and routine is just how life is. I start training from day one and IME puppies who have early training and proper socialization are much easier to train and easier to work with throughout their life. I have found it far more difficult to bring in an adult dog, both in terms of them adjusting to the household and in terms of getting them to be an accepted part of the resident pack. If the dog also is lacking in training and socialization, they may never really catch up to where a puppy I raised myself is in terms of trainibility and adaptability. That is not to say they'd never be good dogs - I enjoy the dogs I have brought in as adults and have had success training them, as well as other people's adult dogs. But my preference will always be to raise my own puppies, as that gives me a lot more control over how they will turn out.

As for temperament testing by rescue groups, it isn't real accurate IME. A dog may be fine with the dog it is introduced to at the shelter or the group the foster home has but that doesn't mean it will be fine with any dog it is sent to live with. Many dogs don't start off fighting, instead the problem develops after both dogs have an established relationship. Just because a dog is good with a dog savvy cat, doesn't mean it won't think "prey" with a skittish cat who runs at the sight of the dog. A dog who is shy at the shelter may just be stressed due to the environment or it may actually be afraid of people. A dog who seems friendly in the shelter may turn out to be aloof once they are in a home. You really never know, unless the dog has a known background or has been a long term foster. Even then dogs react differently in different environments, sometimes better and sometimes not.

 That isn't a reason not to consider an adult dog. In some cases, adult dogs are a better choice for various reasons. And some people really dislike raising puppies (I honestly can't imagine why but to each their own), so adult dogs are appropriate for them. In a household with fewer than three adult dogs who have no major issues, it really is just personal preference. Someone who has an adult male can generally easily add an adult female or vice versa, unless the dog has known dog issues. But once you have an adult male and an adult female, especially with certain breeds/temperament types continuing to add more adult dogs is tricky at best and puppies are often a safer bet.

tenna

I will reiterate my point - it doesn't matter how much screening a breeder or shelter does - crap can happen. The original owner of the dog committed suicide, the family adopted the dog (not knowing the dog was from a good breeder), and after several years of trying to get the dog to get along with their kids they finally gave up. Not the breeder's fault that the owner committed suicide 5 years after buying the dog, and didn't alert his extended family to give the dog back to the breeder.

So, if you knew this whole long story about the dog, and that the dog did indeed come from a good breeder who would've taken the dog back, why didn't you try to help get in contact with the breeder? Would've kept 1 dog out of the shelter....just saying.....