"Pedigree dogs exposed"

jenns

 The way I see it, is that if you are looking for a family pet, there is absolutely no reason to buy one when there are millions of sound, healthy animals dying every year.  There are no temperment guarantees with any animal regardless of where it is from.  You can't even tell what a

 

I don't know if the average person see the difference in adoption vs buying.  In either case, you go someplace, look at some animals, and hand over money.  It is a financial transaction-it looks like buying either way.  And the BYB and puppy mill is a lot easier.  No forms, probably no screening, just money.  I know the advantages of the adoption process from the animals side-hopefully a permanent home with loving people who know how to care for a pet.  Hopefully a good match of personalities.  But I don't think these are too important to people looking for a pet. They should be, but unless you have looked into adoption and understand what is going on, it is easier to buy a dog.  This is why rescues need to consider the merchandising aspect.  It includes teaching about the difference .

Rescues work with volunteers-most can not afford paid staff-so they have limited available hours.  The interview and inspection process take time.  We are not a patient society.  We want something, we want it now.  The BYB or puppy miller are available, and frequently will come to you.  The BYB can be in a nice yard and only has one or two kennels to clean, the miller sells to a store or comes to you.  The rescue is probably in a small facility that is a little depressing, especially if they just had a bunch of animals PTS. These are of course generalizations, but one way to move more animals is to be more available to the public.  Open more days of the week when people are available.  It is a problem to overcome. 

There are a lot of us who expect our dogs to be more than just pets.  My little girl is a pet for 9 months and a hunting partner for 3.  I got her for the three months, the other 9 are an extra benefit.  Because of the 3 months, I need a sound dog with  certain characteristics .  Because I can trace her history and have met her parents, my odds of getting what I wanted went way up.  I see other ESS on PF and on ESS rescue, and they look good.  Some come with papers.  But the odds of getting what I want go down.  Piper is 9 now.  I may adopt another when she passes, or I may decide to not go through that again.

 

 

DougB

jenns

 The way I see it, is that if you are looking for a family pet, there is absolutely no reason to buy one when there are millions of sound, healthy animals dying every year.  There are no temperment guarantees with any animal regardless of where it is from.  You can't even tell what a

 

I don't know if the average person see the difference in adoption vs buying.  In either case, you go someplace, look at some animals, and hand over money.  It is a financial transaction-it looks like buying either way.  And the BYB and puppy mill is a lot easier.  No forms, probably no screening, just money.  I know the advantages of the adoption process from the animals side-hopefully a permanent home with loving people who know how to care for a pet.  Hopefully a good match of personalities.  But I don't think these are too important to people looking for a pet. They should be, but unless you have looked into adoption and understand what is going on, it is easier to buy a dog.  This is why rescues need to consider the merchandising aspect.  It includes teaching about the difference .

Rescues work with volunteers-most can not afford paid staff-so they have limited available hours.  The interview and inspection process take time.  We are not a patient society.  We want something, we want it now.  The BYB or puppy miller are available, and frequently will come to you.  The BYB can be in a nice yard and only has one or two kennels to clean, the miller sells to a store or comes to you.  The rescue is probably in a small facility that is a little depressing, especially if they just had a bunch of animals PTS. These are of course generalizations, but one way to move more animals is to be more available to the public.  Open more days of the week when people are available.  It is a problem to overcome. 

There are a lot of us who expect our dogs to be more than just pets.  My little girl is a pet for 9 months and a hunting partner for 3.  I got her for the three months, the other 9 are an extra benefit.  Because of the 3 months, I need a sound dog with  certain characteristics .  Because I can trace her history and have met her parents, my odds of getting what I wanted went way up.  I see other ESS on PF and on ESS rescue, and they look good.  Some come with papers.  But the odds of getting what I want go down.  Piper is 9 now.  I may adopt another when she passes, or I may decide to not go through that again.

 

 

 

I don't know what rescues/shelters/pounds you've been to, but I wonder if you've actually been to one or are generalizing from things you've heard.  I volunteer and have adopted all my animals from the pound or shelters and NONE of them sound anything like the ones you have described in your posts (this one and the ones previous).  I think you should go out and check out pounds again and see if things are a bit different than you imagine.

tenna

AgileGSD

 As has already been discussed there many issues within the shelter community that have nothing to do with breeders or "overpopulation" but with how shelters are run. That is something the shelter community should be working to change, instead of placing blame on the public for the statistics. Fixing these issues, could help the majority of shelter dogs be able to be placed.

 

This is assuming that all shelters out there are "crappy" shelters that don't try and aren't trying to change to get more adoptions.

 Because the high kill 3 days and they're dead type shelters don't figure into the number of dogs dying in shelters every year? I suspect they figure heavily into it.

 

tenna

AgileGSD

Most people looking for a purebred dog generally aren't the same people who are looking at getting a shelter dog.

I find that this is because people don't believe you can find a purebred dog that isn't temperamentally unsound in a shelter, and/or they don't think purebreds wind up in shelters/rescues.

 Depending on the breed they want, they may be right. Again, while poorly bred examples of popular breeds are widely available some breeds rarely ever end up in rescue. And purebred puppies are not common to find at shelters, even of more popular breeds (APBTs tend to be an exception unfortunately).

tenna

AgileGSD

However, if they can't find what they are looking for in a shelter or are turned off by shelter policies, they aren't likely to just take whatever dog is available.

 And they shouldn't take "whatever dog is available." But this implies there is a guarantee they are incapable of finding a shelter dog they like, that all shelters have policies that suck, or that they will immediately find what they want in a breeder.

 This isn't implying anything, these things happen all the time. I rehomed a dog I rescued with a couple who were turned down by the breed's rescue for not having a fence. Friends of mine have been turned down to adopt both altered dogs and altered cats because they have intact dogs. People come to my classes and tell me they were on a waiting list with the local shelters for an X breed of dog or a toy dog purebred or mixed for months but ended up getting a dog elsewhere when nothing became available. People looking for toy dogs are often told by local shelters that they don't get many and when they do, they are adopted very quickly. One local rescue has taken care of this problem of demand but no supply - they've pretty much stopped taking in strays or unwanted dogs and have started purchasing desirable purebreds and mixes to resell....I mean adopt out. There is a breed specific rescue in my area that almost soley buys dogs from auctions and adopts them out for $1000+, even older ones with health issues. That has turned many people away from adopting from them, even though they would have been good homes.

 Like Liesje, I would not have adopted a shelter dog instead of having the dogs I have (with the exception of the corgi who is a shelter dog). That isn't to say I would never get a rescue dog. I love Border Collies and would consider a rescue one when it is time for me to get one, since I have no interest in breeding or showing BCs and don't need a working farm dog. The only issue would be finding a puppy that is for sure purebred, that I would be allowed to leave intact until it is at least 2, that wouldn't be heavily vaccinated and that would have the sort of temperament I am looking for. I'd probably have better luck getting a rehome from the classifieds than finding a shelter or breed rescue dog that would match that criteria but I'd be willing to look a little. Otherwise, I'd pick up a Farm and Dairy newspaper and find a farmer with puppies for sale out of working parents.

Good point. I did over generalize and mixed in animal control with rescue. A mistake. But referring back to merchandising the animals, you need to have good presentation facilities available when the potential adopter wants. Our major facility is now open tree days a week for viewing, but in selling, more traffic means more sales, and open more hours means more traffic. Working with volunteers and limited budgets, this becomes a problem. Our local pounds are in a transition state right now. We have one police pound-bare concrete floors, depressing. Three area rescues are actually vets offices, so they have descent facilities but not great for showing the pets. They get a lot of the county turn ins. Our big shelter is moving from a small house with a very small yard to a new building. They have a goal of raising 1.25 million dollars to build and establish an endowment fund. So far they have collected over $900.000 and the new state of the art building is being built. Until the new building opens, the facility they have is crowded and only open to the public 3 days a week. I live rural in a small town, and many of the towns around us have small facilities and rely a lot on fostering. Some have no rescue, just a kennel set up they use to hold animals till the local authority decides what to do, some have small buildings with kennel setups. To promote adoptions ,the rescues come to Mankato-to either Petco or our Pet Expo- for pet days. I have seen pictures of some good facilities in other cities, and think our Blue Earth Nicollet County Human Service facility will equal or exceed the best. Now if they can get enough volunteers or paid staff to keep it open more. The small towns in the two county area try to get animals into the BENCHS facility when possible, and the local police try also. It depends on available space. I know they try hard, but I've seen dogs on PF from local rescues that have been in foster for three years. Those dogs think they are at home. (An aside remark) I have noticed that the farther a facility is from Minneapolis, the easier it is to adopt. Price goes down and requirements back off.

AgileGSD

 Because the high kill 3 days and they're dead type shelters don't figure into the number of dogs dying in shelters every year? I suspect they figure heavily into it.

I never said high kill shelters don't figure into the numbers. Where did I even imply that? I am merely saying that your wording implies ALL shelters are high kill shelters and/or are not attempting to change.

Your whole arguement is based on all shelters' dogs somehow being inaccessible, and that's simply not true. Just like breeders, shelters vary in how much or how little they screen homes, and how often they say no. There are still plenty of shelters out there doing pretty much no screening, just like there are BYBs out there doing no screening. For the average home just wanting a pet, I find it impossible to believe that they can't find a local shelter that is willing to give them a dog. Sure, some rescues may turn people down, and some shelters might too. But the vast majory IME have reasonable screening (or none), and most people aren't denied unless there is a really valid reason.

Using examples of crappy rescues buying and re-selling dogs to color and judge all of them is just incorrect.

And I am not saying it's wrong to buy a puppy because you have specific needs that most shelter dogs can't meet. If you want a SchH dog or a herding dog or whatever, that's great! Buy a puppy from a reputable breeder. I am not talking about homes with genuine specific needs.

JackieG

And this hit a lot of people here who work hard in shelters and who care passionately about dogs.  If it seems we reacted strongly it's because we are not uncaring about dogs. Two of my dogs came from shelters.

I was making an observation that earlier in this thread, more than one person sounded uncaring about shelter dogs. That's all I said. Whether they are genuinely uncaring or not is not my point - I was merely making an observation. There is nothing wrong with that and you can jump on me all you want, it won't change the fact that more than one person in this thread sounded uncaring.

tenna

I never said high kill shelters don't figure into the numbers. Where did I even imply that? I am merely saying that your wording implies ALL shelters are high kill shelters and/or are not attempting to change.

Your whole arguement is based on all shelters' dogs somehow being inaccessible, and that's simply not true.

 And not at all what I was saying.

 However, high kill shelters figure heavily into the number of shelter deaths. Your arguement is that shelter dogs are dying in such large numbers due to lack of homes. Many shelter dogs die due to outdated shelter policies and issues within the shelter community, such as shelters turning away good homes due to wanting to push their agenda.

tenna

And I am not saying it's wrong to buy a puppy because you have specific needs that most shelter dogs can't meet. If you want a SchH dog or a herding dog or whatever, that's great! Buy a puppy from a reputable breeder. I am not talking about homes with genuine specific needs.

 Also great for pet owners who are looking for a specific breed of puppy from a known background.

AgileGSD

Also great for pet owners who are looking for a specific breed of puppy from a known background.

 That's just it though, there is no justifiable reason for a pet owner to need a specific breed of puppy from a known background when millions of pefectly good animals are dying. 

sillysally

BTW--if there is anyone that knows there is no guarantee it is me.  Jack has fragmented cornoid process elbow dysplasia, probably from some thing he did to himself playing (something common with FCP according to the vets) as his family was health tested and had no history.  We took out a loan against DH's 401K to pay for his surgery.  He had rehab for many months after the surgery.  The rehab was a 4 hour round trip from our house.  He had to go twice a week for a month and then once a week for many many more months.  I have spent countless hours of my life researching supplements and food for him.  We alter our exercising location and schedule to better suit his elbow.  We drive a 2 hour round trip weekly to take him for swim therapy with a massage therapist.  If we were only interested in fulfilling our "selfish human desires" we would have had Jack put down and gotten a new pup. 

 

I don't see how making sacrifices for your breeder dog justifies buying a dog from a breeder.  You could have done the same thing, spending the same amount of time and money to help an animal that needs a loving home instead of encouraging breeders to keep bringing more dogs into an already overpopulated situation by buying their puppies.

The way I see it, you had a bad experience with a breeder and now have a chip on your shoulder and now everyone who doesn't agree with you is selfish. 

No, my bad experience with a breeder made me realize that my reasons for thinking I was better off with a dog from a breeder was wrong, that's all.

 There isn't? Allergies aren't a specific need? Temperament? Health? Coat type? Those aren't reasonable!!??!?

 

I am not an idiot. I am a dog person. I love dogs, all dogs, dogs of all shapes and sizes. I got a beautiful puppy from a shelter, six years ago. I love her more than anything else in this world. Not only is she a genetic trainwreck, she has some very serious temperament issues. At six, she moves like she is double her age. She is on two prescription medications, prescription dog food, a list of supplements as long as your arm, and she gets laser treatments twice a MONTH (not week, like I originally wrote, because my fingers are faster than my brain). She is kept underweight, to keep the joints from having to carry so much.  It is not, remotely, from lack of care. These dogs do exist, and I don't think they're as uncommon as many seem to think they are.

AgileGSD

 However, high kill shelters figure heavily into the number of shelter deaths. Your arguement is that shelter dogs are dying in such large numbers due to lack of homes. Many shelter dogs die due to outdated shelter policies and issues within the shelter community, such as shelters turning away good homes due to wanting to push their agenda.

I never said it was ONLY due to lack of homes. In fact, I think I said it was a community issue where there is a little blame for everyone. But shelters blaming the public is not helpful, and neither is the public (you) blaming shelters. Like I said before, that just breeds an even worse relationship, and hearing people talk poorly about shelters is just going to push more adopters away. What good is talking smack about shelters going to do, other than push people away? Most high kill shelters, in my area, are shelters that don't do much screening at all.

jenns

help an animal that needs a loving home instead of encouraging breeders to keep bringing more dogs into an already overpopulated situation by buying their puppies.

 

Maybe I'm just a cynical old broad but I don't think breeders are to blame for the massive number of dogs in shelters and I don't think it is incumbent on them to fix the problem.  Dogs don't end up in shelters because there is an overpopulation. IMO They end up in shelters because they get loose/lost (owner's fault), they are uncontrollable (owner's fault), they become a financial burden (owner's fault), they don't fit into life style choices (owner's fault) etc., etc. These dogs were not homeless. If breeders decided to not to produce another single litter and everyone just adopted out of shelters I would bet dollars to doughnuts, the same % of dogs would eventually end up back in the shelters.  It's not the people who breed dogs that turn them into to shelters, it's the people who buy them and refuse to take responsibility for them.

I also think many shelters could do a better job placing animals. Last month my dear friend had a stray cat come to their house. They had already taken in 2 strays, so when they realized this cat was pregnant they took her to the local humane society as they were unprepared to house or home a litter of kittens. They called a few times to see how she was and she ended up delivering 6 kittens. After a few weeks of talking about it they decided that they would actually adopt the cat. When they went to the shelter they were told that because they had 'abandoned' an animal (this cat) they were ineligible to adopt - ever!  

jenns

sillysally

BTW--if there is anyone that knows there is no guarantee it is me.  Jack has fragmented cornoid process elbow dysplasia, probably from some thing he did to himself playing (something common with FCP according to the vets) as his family was health tested and had no history.  We took out a loan against DH's 401K to pay for his surgery.  He had rehab for many months after the surgery.  The rehab was a 4 hour round trip from our house.  He had to go twice a week for a month and then once a week for many many more months.  I have spent countless hours of my life researching supplements and food for him.  We alter our exercising location and schedule to better suit his elbow.  We drive a 2 hour round trip weekly to take him for swim therapy with a massage therapist.  If we were only interested in fulfilling our "selfish human desires" we would have had Jack put down and gotten a new pup. 

 

I don't see how making sacrifices for your breeder dog justifies buying a dog from a breeder.  You could have done the same thing, spending the same amount of time and money to help an animal that needs a loving home instead of encouraging breeders to keep bringing more dogs into an already overpopulated situation by buying their puppies.

The way I see it, you had a bad experience with a breeder and now have a chip on your shoulder and now everyone who doesn't agree with you is selfish. 

No, my bad experience with a breeder made me realize that my reasons for thinking I was better off with a dog from a breeder was wrong, that's all.

 

So because YOU made a choice about where your next dog came from based on your bad experiences anyone who makes a different choice is therefore wrong and selfish....right....I can see where this is going now.....

Jack's temperament and outlook through his ordeals has more than justified buying a dog from a good breed with a known back round.  He went through painful physical therapy, frustrating crate rest, a hella ear infection where he had to go through very VERY painful (whimpering, bleeding) ear cleanings and not one sign of aggression.  He hasn't once so much as raised his lip at anything we've had to do.  The vet confessed to me that she was quite concerned that he would be hard to deal with due to having negative medical experiences but he LOVES the vet's office.  Actually, ALL the vets who have dealt with him have been impressed with how he handled the experience.  He gets along awesomely with Sally, annoys my cats but has a low enough prey drive that it goes no further than that, adores children--even obnoxious annoying children, is a peace-maker at the dog park, etc. 

I went with his breed because of temperament and I went with a breeder specifically because we preferred a puppy due to the temperament of our current dog (my husband would have preferred an adult dog but we both thought Sally would adjust better the younger the dog was, and we were right), and in this area we have a lot of issue with labs with iffy temperaments-lab bites are not uncommon here.  In addition, I wanted to compete in agility, etc, but the elbow thing made that out of the question. 

I will not apologize for having specific expectations for a dog and therefore going with a reputable breeder whose dogs I had info on rather than going to a shelter. 

Obviously, things like temperament matter a LOT more to me than they do you.  My insurance doesn't allow me to have a dog that bites.  One bite and we lose the insurance or we lose the dog--then try to somehow find homeowner's insurance with a pit bull mix all over again.  But even if insurance were not an issue, I would NOT have a dog in my house that had bitten three people.  It just would not happen.

If wanting to do right by my current dog, my current and future family, and the dog coming into my household makes me a selfish person, then I guess that's what I am.... 

jenns

 

 That's just it though, there is no justifiable reason for a pet owner to need a specific breed of puppy from a known background when millions of pefectly good animals are dying. 

 

I disagree with this strongly on several levels.  One is quit simple.  You don't get to make decisions for me.  You can argue, present your case if I choose to listen.  But I decide for myself.  There is no way to force me to do what you want.  And you would not let me have a dog that I didn't want.  I don't even know if you would let me adopt a dog I wanted. And if we follow the animal rights agenda, none of  us might qualify to raise pets as pets would cease to exist.

In our society, the only reason you really need is that you want it.  I don't have to justify to anybody why I want a specific dog or cat.  Dog A does not equal dog B.  If I want A, I don't have to take the substitute you want me to take.  And if you try to force your choice on me, I will go elsewhere. The fate of the millions of others is not my fault nor my responsibility, unless I voluntarily accept that responsibility.  The dog I choose to buy from a breeder for my reasons has just as much right to a good life as any dog in a rescue.  And if the dog is in a no kill rescue or foster, why should I be worried about it.  It is safe and well cared for.  Why should the breeders dog be forced to go through a rescue process before I can have it. It seems like the belief here is only rescue people are qualified to decide who can have a pet.

The reality is, breeders exist and will continue to exist.  Calling it wrong does not make it wrong.  It just means you are opposed.  Try to eliminate puppy mills, but watch how you define puppy mill. If you use too broad a brush, the politicians will discover that dog owners and breeders oppose too much control and back the opposition up with votes and dollars.  Try to make criteria for adoption approach the needs of the animal, not the rescue.  Frequently, potential adopters are treated like the enemy, when common sense and some observation would show that most people who want to adopt actually love animals and would provide a satisfactory home for the animal.   Otherwise, why would they go through the process or want to pay the adoption fee?

Before I get jumped on too hard here, I respect the job rescues and fosters do.  I have raised a few animals that I rescued, but I do not work with an organization .  I don't know if I could stand the frustration and misery they frequently encounter and I know that they get to set their own rules on adoption.  Talking about rescue is confusing due to the many different kinds and sizes of rescue organizations out there, from the individual who helps a stray to the large scale organized business style group. But they have to know that if their rules are too excluding and too rigidly applied, good homes are passed up.

 

DougB

You don't get to make decisions for me.  You can argue, present your case if I choose to listen.  But I decide for myself.  There is no way to force me to do what you want. 

Well obviously.  I can't force someone not to use choke collars or alpha roll their dogs, but it doesn't mean I can't oppose their actions or think they are making the wrong choice, or try to offer my viewpoint so maybe they will change their actions to one that is more ethical.

DougB

I respect the job rescues and fosters do.  I have raised a few animals that I rescued, but I do not work with an organization .   I don't know if I could stand the frustration and misery they frequently encounter

Well they probably would have to deal with a lot less frustration and misery if people stopped buying from breeders.

 

DougB

Frequently, potential adopters are treated like the enemy, when common sense and some observation would show that most people who want to adopt actually love animals and would provide a satisfactory home for the animal.   Otherwise, why would they go through the process or want to pay the adoption fee?

This I totally agree with.