"Pedigree dogs exposed"

DougB

Rescues need to realize that they are in competition to place pets, and the retailers and breeders are out merchandising them.

 Well that just proves that rescued dogs are losing out on homes and dying because of competition from breeders.  That is so sad.

jenns

And what happens if the dog you buy from a breeder doesn't work out with your other animals? 

I have read some breeders contracts on the net and they include return agreements that are more stringent than adoption contracts.  Some require prepurchase interviews and I saw one that included a home inspection-she didn't sell out of her city.  Some of these breeders are very proud of their pups and picky about who gets them.  And  you have to get on a waiting list for some, with a down payment up front. These breeders sell quality and get big bucks(as in thousands), and seem to have no problem placing their pups.

 There are no guarantees, so that's why you do research.  I specifically got a lab as a second dog because I wanted a socially gregarious, playful, happy-go-lucky-the-whole-world-and-everyone-in-it-is-awesome dog, as I felt that this personality is what would work best with Sally, who is dog selective.  I picked a pup that was opposite sex and ended up choosing a dog that was a different color than I wanted because I felt that his personality was the right one. 

And ya know what?  I was right.  My dogs get along very well.  Our biggest issue with their relationship is that they want to play too much. 

Just buying a dog from a reputable breeder doesn't magically make it fit into your family.  You have to do research, know what you are looking for in a dog, know what personalities your current dogs have and think about how that might mesh, etc.  Could it have gone sideways?  Yep, I suppose it could have, but we did what we could to set both dogs up for success and it worked out well for us.

I'm not sure why this is such an issue for you.  If you want to adopt, I think it's wonderful.  I would NEVER, EVER discourage someone from adopting.  However, if I chose a different path I'm not sure why it's such a big deal.

jenns

DougB

Rescues need to realize that they are in competition to place pets, and the retailers and breeders are out merchandising them.

 

 Well that just proves that rescued dogs are losing out on homes and dying because of competition from breeders.  That is so sad.

To me, it is not a matter of competition between a *reputable* breeder and a rescue.  Actually, they often work together.  Most reputable breeders I know are involved in rescue somehow.  A friend of mine does dobe rescue and had me give her card to my rally instructor, who is a reputable dobe breeder and very involved in the breed so that referrals can be made to the rescue.

If you are going to talk competition, then I would tell you to look at puppy brokers, BYBers, the internet based "doodle" factories, etc.  THOSE are the people churning out dogs for $$$ to whomever will buy them...

jenns

JackieG

 It's a complicated problem, with no one perfect solution.

 

There is a solution, unfortunately most people are more concerned about having "choices"  rather than the animals who are losing their lives.

 Do you feel that domestic dogs should  be "phased out" due to some people's irresponsible behavior?

sillysally

 There are no guarantees, so that's why you do research.

And you could say the same for adopting. You do research, find the type of dog you want, find a rescue that does extensive temperament and behavior evaluations (and maybe even has the dog in a foster home so you know how it acts in a home), etc. I'm not arguing you need to adopt, I'm just saying that your arguments for buying a dog can be used for pushing adoption.

sillysally

Just buying a dog from a reputable breeder doesn't magically make it fit into your family.  You have to do research, know what you are looking for in a dog, know what personalities your current dogs have and think about how that might mesh, etc.

Again, you should be doing all this if you are adopting, and by doing so, would be setting yourself up for success.

And again, I'm not saying people shouldn't buy from reputable breeders if they have a good reason. Right now I'm merely arguing that your reasoning for getting a puppy from a breeder could have applied to going to a reputable rescue who has dogs in foster homes, does meet and greets resident dogs, and is good at match making.

AgileGSD

jenns

JackieG

 It's a complicated problem, with no one perfect solution.

 

There is a solution, unfortunately most people are more concerned about having "choices"  rather than the animals who are losing their lives.

 Do you feel that domestic dogs should  be "phased out" due to some people's irresponsible behavior?

Of course.  Because that's how it works--those that are irresponsible pay because some people are not.

Since we are discussing animals losing their lives, I wonder if jenns eats or wears animal products, because is so, animals have died (in much more horrible ways than shelter dogs BTW) just so she can have "choices."

tenna

Again, you should be doing all this if you are adopting, and by doing so, would be setting yourself up for success.

And again, I'm not saying people shouldn't buy from reputable breeders if they have a good reason. Right now I'm merely arguing that your reasoning for getting a puppy from a breeder could have applied to going to a reputable rescue who has dogs in foster homes, does meet and greets resident dogs, and is good at match making.

That's fine.  We will just have to agree to disagree.  I'm not against rescue. 

However, I know my dogs (specifically Sally, Jack would be thrilled with any canine we brought into the house), and I still feel that a puppy from parents whose temperaments are a known quantity would be the best of the possible options.  Either way, it's a moot point, as we are definitely not looking for another dog at this point in time--we already have the two, who are 3 and 5, two cats, a senior horse, I'm lobbying for a kitten (which would be a shelter kitty) and we are considering maybe possibly having a child in the next few years.  In all likelihood we will just let our current pair grow old together--they have good chemisrty and I'm a little worried that a third dog would create "odd man out" syndrome.

jenns

DougB

Rescues need to realize that they are in competition to place pets, and the retailers and breeders are out merchandising them.

 

 Well that just proves that rescued dogs are losing out on homes and dying because of competition from breeders.  That is so sad.

 Not really. There are many, many breeds that almost never end up in rescue. Even with common breeds, there aren't nearly enough purebred healthy puppies in rescue to fill GOOD homes that want them. Dogs, even mixes aren't dying in shelters because people are buying from puppies from breeders.

 As has already been discussed there many issues within the shelter community that have nothing to do with breeders or "overpopulation" but with how shelters are run. That is something the shelter community should be working to change, instead of placing blame on the public for the statistics. Fixing these issues, could help the majority of shelter dogs be able to be placed.

 Saying breeders are taking homes away from shelter dogs is a rather uninformed viewpoint. Most people looking for a purebred dog generally aren't the same people who are looking at getting a shelter dog. Sometimes there is some cross over of course, as some people may consider a rescue before looking at breeders and some may find what they want. However, if they can't find what they are looking for in a shelter or are turned off by shelter policies, they aren't likely to just take whatever dog is available. You may feel that is wrong or uncaring but it really isn't for you to determine where, why or how other people chose their pets.

jenns

sillysally

Different families have different needs. 

Well I guess I have an issue with the word "need".  No family "needs" a dog.  They WANT a dog.   All homeless dogs NEED a home.  And besides, my reasoning for buying a puppy from a breeder was because I didn't want a dog with behavior issues.  Boy was I wrong, because all I got were behavior issues.  My dog has bitten 3 people and comes from the best show champion lines imaginable.

A bit off topic but if your dog has been given a chance to bite three people, you may want to consider how you could better manage his behavior. Have you attended training classes or gotten help from a behaviorist? Have you consulted with the breeder about the problem?

 Biting isn't always a sign of a "bad temperament", it really depends on the situation. I have known dogs with good temperaments or who started with good temperaments but have bitten or developed issues due to bad circumstances. Any breed that tends to be guardy may becomes overly so in the wrong environment. It isn't wrong for these dogs to be territorial but it is wrong for owners to ignore such behavior, fail to train the dog or to think that such breeds are fine to leave wander the yard without supervision. Quite a few dogs are perfectly nice dogs in most situations but growl, snap or even bite at the groomer's or vet's for certain things and I don't generally consider that to be "bad temperament" either.

AgileGSD

 Not really. There are many, many breeds that almost never end up in rescue. Even with common breeds, there aren't nearly enough purebred healthy puppies in rescue to fill GOOD homes that want them. Dogs, even mixes aren't dying in shelters because people are buying from puppies from breeders.

I disagree. Regardless of *why* people are not getting dogs from shelters, those people are obviously getting a dog from somewhere. And they have very few options; shelter, someone re-selling, find it as a stray and keep it, or a breeder.  If they are choosing to get a dog from a breeder (whether it's reputable or a BYB), or from craigslist or the newspaper, they are choosing to NOT get a shelter dog. It does not matter why they choosing to not get a shelter dog, but the fact of the matter is, if people aren't adopting, dogs aren't finding homes, and somewhere they are dying because of it.

AgileGSD

 As has already been discussed there many issues within the shelter community that have nothing to do with breeders or "overpopulation" but with how shelters are run. That is something the shelter community should be working to change, instead of placing blame on the public for the statistics. Fixing these issues, could help the majority of shelter dogs be able to be placed.

This is assuming that all shelters out there are "crappy" shelters that don't try and aren't trying to change to get more adoptions. It's assuming a lot of shelters and shelter workers. And I think it's unfair. I don't think shelters should blame people, no. But blaming shelters just creates the same dynamic as them blaming us, and doesn't create a cooperative relationship where we should all be helping each other. It just breeds dislike, hate, distrust, and other icky feelings that don't help anyone. I guess though, if someone feels better by blaming shelters, than well... that's OK.

AgileGSD

 Saying breeders are taking homes away from shelter dogs is a rather uninformed viewpoint.

I agree, it's not 100% accurate, but I wouldn't say it's uninformed. Like I said before, people have limited options on how to acquire a pet. And most dog owners, if they could not choose one, would choose another.

AgileGSD

Most people looking for a purebred dog generally aren't the same people who are looking at getting a shelter dog.

I find that this is because people don't believe you can find a purebred dog that isn't temperamentally unsound in a shelter, and/or they don't think purebreds wind up in shelters/rescues.

AgileGSD

However, if they can't find what they are looking for in a shelter or are turned off by shelter policies, they aren't likely to just take whatever dog is available.

 And they shouldn't take "whatever dog is available." But this implies there is a guarantee they are incapable of finding a shelter dog they like, that all shelters have policies that suck, or that they will immediately find what they want in a breeder.

AgileGSD

You may feel that is wrong or uncaring but it really isn't for you to determine where, why or how other people chose their pets.

I don't believe I said it was my decision. That doesn't mean I can't argue my point on why choosing adoption is important, can be an excellent decision, and that many people can find a great family pet that way. Why is it so bad to argue adopting and saving a life, over promoting breeding? Isn't that what I should be doing to help shelters out, promoting them and getting them advertisement space within my life? I can form personal opinions all I want on whether someone could have found just as great a dog in a shelter as they did at a breeder, and I can encourage adoption all I want, and hell, I am pretty sure I am allowed to voice those opinions. I don't believe I am blaming any of you for dogs dying in shelters, nor did I call anyone who has bought a dog wrong or uncaring. I merely said some people sounded uncaring about shelter dogs, not that because they bought a dog that mean they didn't care, there is a big difference, I hope you can figure it out.

tenna

I merely said some people sounded uncaring about shelter dogs

And this hit a lot of people here who work hard in shelters and who care passionately about dogs.  If it seems we reacted strongly it's because we are not uncaring about dogs. Two of my dogs came from shelters.

tenna

That doesn't mean I can't argue my point on why choosing adoption is important

I don't think anyone here is denying that adoption is important. You are preaching to the choir on this board. Because we argue against eliminating purebred dogs doesn't mean we are promoting breeding over adoption.

sillysally

Since we are discussing animals losing their lives, I wonder if jenns eats or wears animal products, because is so, animals have died (in much more horrible ways than shelter dogs BTW) just so she can have "choices."

Actually, I do not eat or wear animal products, I became vegan a year and half ago, and I agree that animals on factory farms live and die in more misery than almost any dog or cat will ever have to face.  That's why it also angers me when people are so concerned with abuse of dogs and cats and then go chow down on a hamburger.

 The way I see it, is that if you are looking for a family pet, there is absolutely no reason to buy one when there are millions of sound, healthy animals dying every year.  There are no temperment guarantees with any animal regardless of where it is from.  You can't even tell what a puppies personality will be by knowing the parents of the animal, genetics is a lot more complicated than that.  And my situation proves that ribbons and championships don't mean anything either.   I believed exactly the way you did, which is why I have two purebred dogs in my house right now, both from breeders.  I am not against breeding, but I just believe we need to take care of the animals that are already here before we breed more.  Anything else is just fulfilling selfish human desires over innocent lives.  As long as we can admit that is what we are doing, then there is nothing to argue.

jenns

 The way I see it, is that if you are looking for a family pet

IF you are just looking for a family pet.....

Nikon was my first ever purchase from a breeder (and my sixth pet).  There's no way I would have adopted a dog if this litter had not been born or I hadn't been selected to get one.  Now you can make all these assumptions about me but before you do keep in mind you don't know anything about my involvement in breed rescue or the local rescues and shelters.

Since you are all about condemning breed maintenance I'm not really inclined to agree with your view on genetics.

jenns

 The way I see it, is that if you are looking for a family pet, there is absolutely no reason to buy one when there are millions of sound, healthy animals dying every year.  There are no temperment guarantees with any animal regardless of where it is from.  You can't even tell what a puppies personality will be by knowing the parents of the animal, genetics is a lot more complicated than that.  And my situation proves that ribbons and championships don't mean anything either.   I believed exactly the way you did, which is why I have two purebred dogs in my house right now, both from breeders.  I am not against breeding, but I just believe we need to take care of the animals that are already here before we breed more.  Anything else is just fulfilling selfish human desires over innocent lives.  As long as we can admit that is what we are doing, then there is nothing to argue.

Hmmm...The way I see it, you had a bad experience with a breeder and now have a chip on your shoulder and now everyone who doesn't agree with you is selfish.  Sorry, but my breeder dog has not bitten 3 people and continuously impresses people with his temperament and good nature. 

BTW--if there is anyone that knows there is no guarantee it is me.  Jack has fragmented cornoid process elbow dysplasia, probably from some thing he did to himself playing (something common with FCP according to the vets) as his family was health tested and had no history.  We took out a loan against DH's 401K to pay for his surgery.  He had rehab for many months after the surgery.  The rehab was a 4 hour round trip from our house.  He had to go twice a week for a month and then once a week for many many more months.  I have spent countless hours of my life researching supplements and food for him.  We alter our exercising location and schedule to better suit his elbow.  We drive a 2 hour round trip weekly to take him for swim therapy with a massage therapist.  If we were only interested in fulfilling our "selfish human desires" we would have had Jack put down and gotten a new pup. 

I would do it all again, but we have given up a lot for Jack's benefit, so please don't lecture me about no guarantees, and my selfish human desires taking priority over innocent lives.