"Pedigree dogs exposed"

tenna

BlackLabbie

So, if you knew this whole long story about the dog, and that the dog did indeed come from a good breeder who would've taken the dog back, why didn't you try to help get in contact with the breeder? Would've kept 1 dog out of the shelter....just saying....

 

That was not my responsibility. That was the shelter's responsibility, and last I heard they were in contact with the breeder. What was I supposed to do, drive to the shelter, stop the owners in the lobby, tell them I would take their dog from them and hold onto him until the breeder was contacted? Absolutely not. Just because the dog wound up in a shelter doesn't mean the breeder wasn't contacted. Thanks for making assumptions though. :)

What was the point of your story in the first place then? Why didn't you just say the breeder was contacted in the first place? And if it truely was a good breeder the dog is either back with the breeder or in a new home the breeder screened, not in a shelter sitting waiting for a home or PTS for space. And talk about making assumptions, you and a few other members have been making assumpions about breeders and those who buy from breeders throughout this thread without all the facts about breeding and genetics and why people want a purebred dog from a good breeder.

Liesje

This should be the responsibility of DOG OWNERS. 

Well, as already pointed out, there will always be irresonsible dog owners.  What should be, and what is, are not the same.

Liesje

Again, targeting reputable breeders in order to reach your goal makes zero sense to me, unless I'm missing something......

Because, even the reputable breeders perpetuate this idea that dogs exist for our purposes and amusement. They are manipulating genetics to suit human's ideals of beauty and utility even when it can potentially harm the animal physically, they are judging an animal's worth based on their ability to compete for ribbons and titles, and they are selling offspring and rehoming adult dogs when they are no longer useful for breeding and showing, or no longer "fit" into their breeding program.  People can pick and choose a dog breed like they are shopping for a new couch.  It is no wonder that so many people in our society view them as disposable.  And I don't care how you put it, breeding purebreds favors small gene pools.  That is not fair to dogs.  If these reputable breeders really cared about the health of dogs, their number 1 priority would be to widen the gene pool as much as possible and put absolutely no importance on coat color/type/length, ear shape, eye shape, ability to compete etc etc..  I don't know a single breeder that does that.   If I did, then I MIGHT consider them responsible.

jenns

Because, even the reputable breeders perpetuate this idea that dogs exist for our purposes and amusement.

Why do you have dogs then?  I guess one could argue the same thing to you.  Why have dogs if you are not a breed fancier who is working your dogs and promoting dogs that work as service dogs and protecting our national security?

Your excuses keep changing so I don't really follow....

If these reputable breeders really cared about the health of dogs, their number 1 priority would be to widen the gene pool as much as possible and put absolutely no importance on coat color/type/length, ear shape, eye shape, ability to compete etc etc..  I don't know a single breeder that does that.   If I did, then I MIGHT consider them responsible.

Well, yes, this is quite obvious by the tone and ignorance of your posts.

Chuffy

Are you therefore saying it is better to have ill-thought out, accidental (and therefore irresponsibly) bred litters, more likely to suffer health issues.... than have planned, carefully thought out litters that move their breed away from health and behaviour issues?

Less importance needs to be placed on breed (if any at all) and more needs to be placed on dogs' well-being.  'Breed' is a man-made construct anyway.  There were no dog breeds until humans started manipulating their breeding.

Chuffy

none of us need to have dogs, it is always a basically selfish decision to bring one into our homes

No, if a dog is homeless it is not selfish. 

And when the economy improves, the numbers should drop even more.

Have you heard of "enlightened self interest".  People take care of what they value, what is important to their interests.  While it is nice to do good things because your a good person, self interest is a better human motivator.  More reliable, and longer lasting.  People have dogs because they want them.  By differentiating breeds,  more people find desirable dogs.  Personally, I don't want a big dog.  My brother has a mastiff.  I don't have a use for small dogs.  My sister raised Yorkies.  I have a Springer.  My choice.   We take good care of our dogs, its in our interest to take care of them.  These dogs fit our needs.  Dogs are not interchangable.  What I want in a dog is different than what you want.  If I don't like a dog, I stay away from it.

You want dogs to have homes, they have to fit the needs of the people giving them homes.  

This seems to have turned into an "animal rights" argument, which means of course that logic and reason , reality and facts have become meaningless.  The world should be a certain way because "I" want it that way

Regarding widening the gene pool, the best way to do that would be to turn them loose and let them run feral, no controls on breeding or behavior.  Of course, as dogs are an artificial life form bred to serve humanity, most would die quickly.  They are a successful species because they are bred to exist with humans.  They are popular because they are so varied and useful to humans.  Actually the ones meeting the wide gene pool requirement best now are the BYBs and puppy mills,

Liesje

Why do you have dogs then? 

I got my dogs for the same reasons many of you did.  Next time I will be rescuing.

Liesje

Well, yes, this is quite obvious by the tone and ignorance of your posts.

jenns

No, if a dog is homeless it is not selfish. 

Please, explain this statement.  I thought that if a dog was homeless , it was either dead or on its way to being dead.

jenns

Liesje

Why do you have dogs then? 

I got my dogs for the same reasons many of you did.  Next time I will be rescuing.

 

I have dogs because I want to maintain and promote my breed and the jobs they were created to do.  You said earlier that there is nothing dogs do that shelter dogs cannot do.  I gave you examples but you are choosing to ignore them and instead go off on other tangents.  I'm trying to get back to the original arguments that you introduced to the thread.....

Your posts seem to be emotional responses based on a bad experience you had with someone that sounds like the typical show breeder (not really giving a rip about temperament or anything other than conformation and show wins).

jenns

Because, even the reputable breeders perpetuate this idea that dogs exist for our purposes and amusement.

They DO. Dogs exist because humans domesticated them, and breeds exist because humans have selected dogs who's characteristics suited them best, and those dogs have thrived.

 I wrote another paragraph or two, but decided against it. This is just silly. I'm out.

BlackLabbie

What was the point of your story in the first place then? Why didn't you just say the breeder was contacted in the first place? And if it truely was a good breeder the dog is either back with the breeder or in a new home the breeder screened, not in a shelter sitting waiting for a home or PTS for space. And talk about making assumptions, you and a few other members have been making assumpions about breeders and those who buy from breeders throughout this thread without all the facts about breeding and genetics and why people want a purebred dog from a good breeder.

My point of the story was that dogs from good breeders have, and will, wind up in shelters, albeit very infrequently. Someone said earlier in this thread that the dogs from reputable breeders NEVER wind up in shelters, and that's simply not true. My story was evidence that they can and do wind up in shelters. The end.

I am making no assumptions. I perfectly understand why people would want to buy from a reputable breeder, and I've said multiple times in this thread that I think it's fine if they have a good reason to buy from one. Nowhere have I been dissing purebred dogs, or talking at all about actual breeding practices or genetics. You are grouping me with other pro-shelter people in this thread.

jennie_c_d

They DO. Dogs exist because humans domesticated them, and breeds exist because humans have selected dogs who's characteristics suited them best, and those dogs have thrived.

 I wrote another paragraph or two, but decided against it. This is just silly. I'm out.

yes and yes to this.

OK, let's go back to the beginning. I agree that there needs to be more done in pedigree dogs. The segment was one sided, though the moral content was correct. Some of the dogs are worse off than they were to begin with. And that is the human fault.

In regards to so many dogs in shelters that are dying by the zillions. I do not disagree that it happens, I do not disagree that breeders help perpetuate this process. I do agree that more needs to be done.

So, instead of starting with the breeders who are trying their level best to improve problems both hereditary and by design, let's start at the bottom of the breeder chain and work our way up the chain.

So you would start with:

• Pet responsibility, spay and neuter. Keep your pets leashed. Training, health care and the like.
• Puppie mills, the motto here "breed breed breed" "more more more".
• Puppy brokers "You breed em, we sell em, and not for cheap either!"
• Designer dogs ....please.........
• The smiths down the street, breed their girl to the Jones boy dog, we have PUPPIES! And the are AKC registered, yes siree this is a fine example of dog and they are so CUTE!
• BYB, yep, just have these 2, they had puppies, CUTE puppies, I can get you papers, will have another little same time next year.
• The Hobby breeder, not as bad as the ones above, could do more, could do less.
• The Show breeder, The working line breeder. Trying to work with what they have, trying to improve or lessen problems.

So, if you want to make a difference in shelters, start at the top please.

jenns

sillysally

Having a dog with a good temperament in my house is not a luxury, it is a must for any dog that comes into the house.  I don't consider not putting my dog selective dog through the stress of meeting multiple adult dogs when I know that a puppy will be less stressful for her a luxury, I consider it a no-brainer. 

 Well just like you saId yourself in an earlier post, you didn't need to get another dog, you wanted one.  Therefore, nothing about your situation was a necessity. Your dog is not the one deciding to bring a new animal in the house.  Based on your description of Sally and her tendecy to experience stress around other dogs, and the fact that you said you wanted a dog to do agility with, it sounds to me like you got another dog for yourself.  It IS a luxury that we can all pick and choose from numerous different types of dogs, all different shapes, sizes and temperments to find one that suits our particular lifestyles, whims and desires.  Like buying a car.  Heck, I consider a luxury that we can share our lives with dogs at all!

Anyone who gets a dog is doing it at least for partially selfish reasons, even those who rescue.  I don't know one person who is like, "You know what, I can't stand dogs and am really irritated by THIS dog in particular, but I'm going to give it a home anyway, 'cause I'm just like that."  People who rescue animals do so because they have an interest in them.  I rescued Sally and an Off the Track Standardbred gelding.  I was not looking for either a dog or a horse at the time (I actually REALLY could not afford the horse), but they were both in situations that were not good ones--Sally needed a home and Snafu needed to not be sold to the Amish and run into the ground.  It was definitely good for them that I did that--Sally is right next to me trying to figure out how to torment the cat without being caught and Snafu was recently given to a home where they spoil him rotten and he has his own 11 year old boy.  HOWEVER, I would be either a liar or delusional if I said that they were completely selfless acts.  I love dogs and had grown up with and loved horses.  If they had been homeless snakes, things likely would have ended up differently.  

No our decision to get a second dog was not entirely for Sally, but she did factor into it.  Because she is iffy about strange dogs she can't really be taken to daycare or the dog park and I don't really have "doggy" friends, so no playdates.  However, she really seemed to enjoy canine social interaction.  That, combined with the fact that yes, I did *gasp* want another dog (I know, how dare I actually want a dog), and it was the right time in our lives led us to getting Jack. 

However, the decision to get a puppy from a breeder rather than an adult dog from some sort of rescue/rehome situation was based entirely on Sally's temperament.  I guess THAT is what p!sses me off the most about you posts (other than PETA rhetoric, that is).  We would have had NO problem getting a young adult dog, we even looked at a couple in the shelter (one that would have been a really good agility prospect), looked on rescue sites, DH definitely preferred an adult, etc.  In the end we decided, for the reasons stated repeatedly, that a pup would be the best bet, and if we got a pup, I wanted one from a breeder so I could be more sure of the temperament.

This is not called being a selfish luxury seeker, THIS is called being a responsible dog owner, something I will NOT apologize for and do not regret for a second.  No good ever comes from close-mindedness.  

I have some Christmas shopping to do at Big R's and I'm taking the furry little symbol of my luxury mongering with me.  Other than that, I'm done with this thread.

Jack: because a furry, in-home satellite dish is a luxury....

jenns

AgileGSD

If mixes are so much healthier, why do they die of cancer? Why do they suffer from hip dyplasia? ACL tears? Back problems? Epilepsy? Why do mixes have temperament issues?

Because they are offspring of purebreds with issues.  GSD + Lab = mixed breed pups with high likelhood for hip dysplasia, for example.  Very few mixes are truly mongrels from large varied gene pools.

You start off arguing that mutts are healthy and purebreds are a genetic mess. Now mutts are a genetic mess too but it is the fault of purebreds.

Very few mixes are actually the offspring of two purebred parents, with the exception of course of the purposely bred mixes. Most are second or more generation mixes. There are actually plenty of multi-generation mixes out there - they look like Dingos or Carolina Dogs but most shelters seem to want to call them "GSD mixes". That is what dogs look like when they aren't selectively bred.

[quote user"jenns"]

AgileGSD

I would personally not get involved witha  breed with so many helath issues but certainly don't feel it's my place to tell others they shouldn't be.

 Why not?  If one of your neighbors was leaving their dog tied outside with no food or water for weeks at a time,  do you not feel it's your place to do something about it?

 No clue what this would have to do with my getting ibvolved with a breed of dog that is prone to a lot of health issues...

jenns

[quite user="AgileGSD"]

There will alays be owners who get dogs and can't or won't keep them for whatever reason.

Yup, as long as dogs are available to be purchased then this will happen.  I don't see why shelters should bear the responsibilty for making sure that every dog in the country has a home. 

Well in the past, shelters existed to simply dispose of unwanted animals and adoption was not at all heavily promoted. I would sure hope that we have moved past such dark ages. I would hope in our modern times, shelters, shelter directors and shelter workers would want to make sure every adoptable dog was given a chance to find a home, regardless of who's fault it was that the dog ended up homeless. 

jenns

Less importance needs to be placed on breed (if any at all) and more needs to be placed on dogs' well-being.  'Breed' is a man-made construct anyway.  There were no dog breeds until humans started manipulating their breeding.

 Domestic dogs are man-made, as are all domestic creatures.

Truley

OK, let's go back to the beginning. I agree that there needs to be more done in pedigree dogs. The segment was one sided, though the moral content was correct. Some of the dogs are worse off than they were to begin with. And that is the human fault.

In regards to so many dogs in shelters that are dying by the zillions. I do not disagree that it happens, I do not disagree that breeders help perpetuate this process. I do agree that more needs to be done.

So, instead of starting with the breeders who are trying their level best to improve problems both hereditary and by design, let's start at the bottom of the breeder chain and work our way up the chain.

So you would start with:

• Pet responsibility, spay and neuter. Keep your pets leashed. Training, health care and the like.
• Puppie mills, the motto here "breed breed breed" "more more more".
• Puppy brokers "You breed em, we sell em, and not for cheap either!"
• Designer dogs ....please.........
• The smiths down the street, breed their girl to the Jones boy dog, we have PUPPIES! And the are AKC registered, yes siree this is a fine example of dog and they are so CUTE!
• BYB, yep, just have these 2, they had puppies, CUTE puppies, I can get you papers, will have another little same time next year.
• The Hobby breeder, not as bad as the ones above, could do more, could do less.
• The Show breeder, The working line breeder. Trying to work with what they have, trying to improve or lessen problems.

So, if you want to make a difference in shelters, start at the top please.

Flip-flop the last two.  The hobby breeder is, IMO, the absolute BEST breeder out there and the only type of breeder I'll ever consider.  I don't care that much about shows, and I will not support commercial breeding (not talking puppy mills) even if the dogs are good quality.  When I purchase a dog it's because I support THAT person and that specific program as much as I want that specific dog.