"Pedigree dogs exposed"

Liesje

Flip-flop the last two.

Yeah, I think I could agree with that.

Not worried about flipping them either, the first 6 are the most detrimental to all dogs.

sillysally

This is not called being a selfish luxury seeker, THIS is called being a responsible dog owner, something I will NOT apologize for and do not regret for a second.  No good ever comes from close-mindedness.  

And nor should you.

To answer another question about sending a dog back to his breeder. I have in place not only a microchip, but my family, 3 of my neighbors and MY VET all know who to contact should God forbid anything happen to either my husband and myself. That person is his breeder.

ETA: Do I get extra credit because I have 2 rescue cats and a rescued Rabbit?

AgileGSD

You start off arguing that mutts are healthy and purebreds are a genetic mess. Now mutts are a genetic mess too but it is the fault of purebreds.

Where did I argue that mutts were healthy?  I argued that breeding dogs with small gene pools and unnatural conformation, i.e. purebreds, is creating health problems.  And yes, the mutts are also genetic messes because of the traits that we insist much be salvaged for the sake of breed preservation.

AgileGSD

No clue what this would have to do with my getting ibvolved with a breed of dog that is prone to a lot of health issues...

You said you don't feel it's your place to tell someone they are doign the wrong thing by breeding does with health issues.  I drew a parallel to another situation where someone was doing something harmful to dogs and asking if you felt it wasn't your place to do something.

AgileGSD

Domestic dogs are man-made, as are all domestic creatures.

No animal is "man-made". The only creatures that humans create are other humans.  Breeds are just categories of animals.  Breeds do not suffer or feel pain.  Animals do.

Liesje

The hobby breeder is, IMO, the absolute BEST breeder out there and the only type of breeder I'll ever consider. 

What do you think about hobby breeders of pugs, bulldogs, dachshunds, basset hounds etc...  Do you think they are the best?

 And, if everyone took  your advice and decided to buy a dog from a hobby breeder, there would not be nearly enough dogs to go around.  Where would all these perfect hobby breeders come from?

sillysally

No good ever comes from close-mindedness.  

 Actually, alot of good comes from close-mindedness.  Thank goodness there are people who are close-minded about dog-fighting for example.  That just might put an end to that horrible practice.  And good thing that there were people close-minded about slavery back in the day, otherwise it would still be happening today.  I don't think I should ever feel I need to be open-minded about suffering, sorry.

jenns

e.  And good thing that there were people close-minded about slavery back in the day, otherwise it would still be happening today.  I don't think I should ever feel I need to be open-minded about suffering, sorry

Um... what the hell? 

 Historically, slavery was a practice considered morally acceptable and economically essential in many different cultures, over a great period of time. It was OPENMINDEDNESS that changed it.  That does not make it OKAY. That just makes your logic completely incomprehensible.

Pwca

 Historically, slavery was a practice considered morally acceptable and economically essential in many different cultures, over a great period of time. It was OPENMINDEDNESS that changed it. 

Yes, openmindedness towards changing what is considered morally acceptable, closeminded towards viewing suffering as acceptable.  I am challenging the current viewpoint on what is considered morally acceptable as far as breeding dogs is concerned.

jenns

Liesje

The hobby breeder is, IMO, the absolute BEST breeder out there and the only type of breeder I'll ever consider. 

What do you think about hobby breeders of pugs, bulldogs, dachshunds, basset hounds etc...  Do you think they are the best?

To be honest I'm not really a "dog person".  I like a few breeds (GSD, Malinois, Belgian Shepherd, Dutch Shepherd, Picardy Shepherd), but most of the other breeds I'd rather own no dogs at all than own.  That include breeds with anatomical structure that prevent them from giving birth naturally, from breathing normally, from living in more extreme climates, from experiencing health issues common because of their anatomy.  I'm more of a natural ears, natural tail, all weather coat, and all terrain structure dog lover. So no, I have zero interest in who is breeding pugs, bulldogs, bassets, etc nor am I really interested in why.  I would not get any one of the breeds you listed, not even from a shelter.  There is no way I could ever have enough time and energy to devote to more breeds after what I already devote to my breed and my dogs.

sillysally

 

   

If you ever get tired of "luxury mongering" you can send Jack to me.  I have no issue being considered a "selfish luxury seeker."

I have read this entire thread, & all that I can say is that, after reading some of the AR bs here, I can see why people are turned off by shelter dogs.  It has nothing to do with the dogs themselves, & everything to do with people who are hellbent on making a purebred fancier feel guilty for not "doing their part & saving a shelter dog." 

jenns

No animal is "man-made". The only creatures that humans create are other humans.  Breeds are just categories of animals.  Breeds do not suffer or feel pain.  Animals do.

 This is all starting to sound real weird... But anyway, you're the one who brought up "man-made" dogs.

do·mes·ti·cate play_w2("D0332300";)  (d-mst-kt)

n. (-kt, -kt)

A plant or animal that has been adapted to live in a human environment

 

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/domestication

BEVOLASVEGAS

I can say is that, after reading some of the AR bs here, I can see why people are turned off by shelter dogs.  It has nothing to do with the dogs themselves, & everything to do with people who are hellbent on making a purebred fancier feel guilty for not "doing their part & saving a shelter dog." 

Uh... so you are saying that breed fanciers are buying their dogs from breeders as a way to retaliate against AR people who are trying to make them feel guilty?  Anyone who would base a decision on that sort of logic SHOULD feel guilty.  And you put "doing their part & saving a shelter dog" in quotes as if it's some stupid, horrible thing.  

Jenns wrote:Uh... so you are saying that breed fanciers are buying their dogs from breeders as a way to retaliate against AR people who are trying to make them feel guilty?  Anyone who would base a decision on that sort of logic SHOULD feel guilty.  And you put "doing their part & saving a shelter dog" in quotes as if it's some stupid, horrible thing. 

Apparently we speak different languages.  Let me translate.  After listening to the dreck and drivel that is spoken by animal rights proponents, and realizing that even the term animal rights is a semantically loaded concept based on emotionalism and an "I know better than you" view of the world, people have started to associate AR with shelters and rescue .  People have rejected the AR view and to avoid having to associate with its proponents, are avoiding rescue.  They do not accept that buying a dog from a breeder means a dog in rescue dies, but rather that a breeder dog has a right to a good home also. The only reason a dog in rescue dies is because the rescue decides  to kill it.

Liesje

To be honest I'm not really a "dog person".  I like a few breeds (GSD, Malinois, Belgian Shepherd, Dutch Shepherd, Picardy Shepherd), but most of the other breeds I'd rather own no dogs at all than own.  That include breeds with anatomical structure that prevent them from giving birth naturally, from breathing normally, from living in more extreme climates, from experiencing health issues common because of their anatomy.  I'm more of a natural ears, natural tail, all weather coat, and all terrain structure dog lover. So no, I have zero interest in who is breeding pugs, bulldogs, bassets, etc nor am I really interested in why.  I would not get any one of the breeds you listed, not even from a shelter.  There is no way I could ever have enough time and energy to devote to more breeds after what I already devote to my breed and my dogs.

That pretty much reflects how I feel about it, and I would go even further and state that breeding something like a bulldog appfinger or pug is capriciously cruel. Other than the GSD for reasons I already stated (and don't even get me started on the damn shiloh people) and the Berger Picard because I don't like dog with hair on their faces.  I, like most consider the Belgian same breed in 4 varieties, my own comes from such a type mix and I hope working breeders aren't making this distinction outside of the US.  I'd also add the pointer and the Portugese Pointer, viszla, and brittany as dogs which I like.  For the most part all the ones mentioned have escaped the attention of the show people and you can still find quality in these breeds.

DougB

People have rejected the AR view and to avoid having to associate with its proponents, are avoiding rescue.  They do not accept that buying a dog from a breeder means a dog in rescue dies, but rather that a breeder dog has a right to a good home also. The only reason a dog in rescue dies is because the rescue decides  to kill it.

I'm sorry but this is completely non-sensical.  A breeder dog has a right to a good home?   By breeding that dog, the breeder has now created an animal that needs a home. If the breeder didn't breed, there would be no dog needing a home.  And people don't accept that buying a dog from a breeder means a dog in resues dies, because they don't WANT to accept it, because they don't want to stop buying or breeding purebreds.  You don't have to be associated with AR to believe that, when faced with a choice of saving a life or creating a new one, that the former is the kinder thing to do.

DougB

After listening to the dreck and drivel that is spoken by animal rights proponents, and realizing that even the term animal rights is a semantically loaded concept based on emotionalism and an "I know better than you" view of the world

Ok, let me ask you something.  Do you feel that taking a stand against dog fighting or child abuse is based on emotionlism?   Well of course it is, our emotions guide our morals.  Without them, everyone would be out for themselves and we would all be like robots.  There would be no bad or good in our society. 

Corinthian

breeding something like a bulldog appfinger or pug is capriciously cruel.

I agree, yet I don't think many here share that view for some strange reason.