"Pedigree dogs exposed"

Giant breeds.  The fact that we have to so careful about what we feed them during their growth phase tells me they are too big for their own good.

Um... there are reports of "Don't let your dogs grow too fast" in hound (I cannot remember if the section is about dogs for deer or boar) manuals from the middle ages. I need to find the exact citations, but while the general recommendation for that time is basically bread + offal in the hunt field, it was recommended to feed younger dogs even LESS meat (ie, protein). Now, I don't think those recommendations were because they understood the impact of nutrition on growth per se, but because observation proved it out.(I'm looking for the citation now, btw.)

In times past, nutrition for dogs was so much more minimal that yes, large dogs stayed smaller very frequently. Do you realize that scurvy and other nutritional deficiencies were COMMON in pet dogs right up until the development of kibbled dog food (because while table scraps are great, they can still be an unbalanced diet if the food on the table is!). (Ad it was less that kibble got rid of that as it made feeding somewhat easier.) Overnutrtition is, yes, a modern problem- but I really do think that a lot of our orthopedic problems in large and giant breeds are really exacerbated by overnutrition- not entirely caused by overbreeding.

AgileGSD

If mixes are so much healthier, why do they die of cancer? Why do they suffer from hip dyplasia? ACL tears? Back problems? Epilepsy? Why do mixes have temperament issues?

Because they are offspring of purebreds with issues.  GSD + Lab = mixed breed pups with high likelhood for hip dysplasia, for example.  Very few mixes are truly mongrels from large varied gene pools.

I would personally not get involved witha  breed with so many helath issues but certainly don't feel it's my place to tell others they shouldn't be.

 Why not?  If one of your neighbors was leaving their dog tied outside with no food or water for weeks at a time,  do you not feel it's your place to do something about it?

There will alays be owners who get dogs and can't or won't keep them for whatever reason.

Yup, as long as dogs are available to be purchased then this will happen.  I don't see why shelters should bear the responsibilty for making sure that every dog in the country has a home.  They are not the ones who brought the dogs into the world in the first place and shelter workers can hardly make a living with what they get paid and that's if they are not volunteers.  You are basically saying that shelters should be in a position where they compete with breeders for potential homes. On what grounds can or should they compete?

jenns

Yup, as long as dogs are available to be purchased then this will happen.  I don't see why shelters should bear the responsibilty for making sure that every dog in the country has a home. 

This should be the responsibility of DOG OWNERS. 

As I already said, I personally have seen more dogs adopted out and returned than I've seen from reputable breeders (and in those cases, the breeder is identified, the dog is picked up by the breeder or breed rescue). Does that mean shelters should go out of business too? 

Again, targeting reputable breeders in order to reach your goal makes zero sense to me, unless I'm missing something......

 The Belgian shepherd has for the most part been ignored by show breeders. In shows that combine Ob/Ag and Conf, I see very few of them on the show side.  The original GSD was also almost identical to the modern Belgian and Dutch, this is no longer the case. You can still find some that look like that if they come from old communist lines. I'm involved in schutzhund, ring  and a few other sport and I've never seen a GSD that did not carry the legacy of the show people.  Even this dog on the video still shows many of the undesirable traits like the slopping back, and thickness - though much less that most.

 But you make the point. SHOW breeders have wrecked the GSD and while the WORKING breeders have tried to maintain the the line, and the working lines are less extreme but we can still see the show influence.  The few GSD I've seen that I've liked (because they looked like the original phenotype) were those that came from behind the iron curtain, one was from Cuba.

Liesje

 

Yup, as long as dogs are available to be purchased then this will happen.  I don't see why shelters should bear the responsibilty for making sure that every dog in the country has a home. 

Reputable breeders try to remove genetic problems from their line of dogs.  We don't know that mongrels are healthier than purebreds, even though we hear it a lot.  While line breeding probably can magnify faults, logically a directed breeding program would minimize the faults as you would not breed carrier to carrier .  While a BYB might do this, a professional  wouldn't want the offspring in his kennel. And, the genetic faults had to be in the parent stock somewhere, unless all the genetic faults are due to mutation.  I mentioned a Russian breeding experiment with foxes earlier , where they found that changing the animals fear of man resulted in genes being activated that changed color because different hormones were now reacting with the genes. It's very possible that the problems with genetics are actually due to dogs becoming less feral.

Some pure bred dogs have problems , not all.  As we seem to be using anecdotal instead of statistical evidence, I can point out that my field springers  have been disgustingly healthy examples, coming from healthy stock.  Rags made it to 17 years with no genetic problems, and Piper at 9 years has no problems except gas (she's sleeping at my feet, so I notice).

spiritdogs

There's only one problem with your line of reasoning, and that is that dogs are surrendered to shelters all the time by owners who fail to remember the contract they signed that obligated them to return the dog to the reputable breeder should they be unable to care for it.  Shelters often take in dogs that they have no background information on, other than what the owner tells them. 

Lies has already addressed this - many breeders realise that this happens and microchip the dog with their details, so that they can be contacted if such a dog turns up.  I don't know if shelters routinely check for chips - they certainly should, if only to make sure that the old owner's details are changed! - but it wouldn't surprise me if many don't. 

Often, a pedigree will be "pulled" by breed rescue, which the reputable breeder is involved in, and they can hear about it that way, and either take the dog, or get involved to help place the dog and find out anything they need to - any health, behaviour issues that they need to be aware of that may be coming up in their lines.

BlackLabbie

So, if you knew this whole long story about the dog, and that the dog did indeed come from a good breeder who would've taken the dog back, why didn't you try to help get in contact with the breeder? Would've kept 1 dog out of the shelter....just saying....

That was not my responsibility. That was the shelter's responsibility, and last I heard they were in contact with the breeder. What was I supposed to do, drive to the shelter, stop the owners in the lobby, tell them I would take their dog from them and hold onto him until the breeder was contacted? Absolutely not. Just because the dog wound up in a shelter doesn't mean the breeder wasn't contacted. Thanks for making assumptions though. :)

JackieG

Agree and I've seen some testing by people with no clue what they are doing.  It is hard to judge a dog in a shelter for it's true temperament. 

I think that there are things that can be done to properly assess a dog's behavior in a shelter. There is the SAFER aggression assessment, that they've done studies on that are pretty convincing. It's not a temperament eval., but an aggression assessment. And there ARE behavior evaluations available (like the ASPCA Meet Your Match program), that have increased adoptions and decreased returns for most shelters that implement them properly.

And if there is a question on the dog's behavior, there is always the option of a foster home.

jenns

The important issue isn't how to get shelters operating more efficiently, it is to prevent dogs from entering shelters to begin with.  That should be the goal. 

I think you are wrong.  Both are important. 

It is not the general public's fault that dogs are dying - if the shelters improved, the dogs would merely sit in shelters, waiting for a home.  They would not die.   It would still be a deplorable situation, all those homeless animals.... but better than so many dying needlessly.

True, stop the animals getting to the shelters in the first place and they wouldn't die.  But that is unrealistic.  There will ALWAYS be dogs that end up in shelters from unforseen circumstances (owner death for example, dog disliking new baby, losing home and having to go somewhere that does not allow pets, etc....)  If shelters do not improve, some of those dogs will always have to die for lack of space.  Educating the public will go some way to improve the situation, I agree with that... LESS dogs would likely die, if we can educate successfully.  But the inefficiency of many shelters remains a problem.  In addition, this education is really a push to change public attitude, and that is a slow process, one that takes years, sometimes decades!  Are you saying it is acceptable for shelters to fail and continue to kill dogs in the meantime?!!!!

AgileGSD

tenna

 The important issue isn't how to get shelters operating more efficiently, it is to prevent dogs from entering shelters to begin with.  That should be the goal.  A shelter, regardless of how well it is run is no place for any animal.  Also, this guy you are quoting is making a living from selling books, cds, dvds, and making public appearances.  Not to say that automatically discredits him, but I'm not going to take everything he says as fact either.

 So who do you take for fact exactly? Why would you assume that because someone writes a book about a field that they have vast experience in, they must just be a salesperson? "This guy" actually quit his job as an attorny to make far less money working in the shelter community.

I do not know why my username is on there, but I was not the one who wrote "the important issue isn't how to get shelters operating more efficiently..."

jenns

sillysally

Having a dog with a good temperament in my house is not a luxury, it is a must for any dog that comes into the house.  I don't consider not putting my dog selective dog through the stress of meeting multiple adult dogs when I know that a puppy will be less stressful for her a luxury, I consider it a no-brainer. 

 Well just like you saId yourself in an earlier post, you didn't need to get another dog, you wanted one.  Therefore, nothing about your situation was a necessity. 

Are you saying it was better than sillysally should simply not have had a second dog?  That it is better NOT to have a dog than have a purposely bred one? 

Are you therefore saying it is better to have ill-thought out, accidental (and therefore irresponsibly) bred litters, more likely to suffer health issues.... than have planned, carefully thought out litters that move their breed away from health and behaviour issues?

Sure, none of us need to have dogs, it is always a basically selfish decision to bring one into our homes.  By that logic (PETA logic), none of us SHOULD own dogs, and the dog species would be better off extinct than tied to humans......  Okaaaay.

 And I think, Chuffy, that is the point (though I find it odd coming from someone who owns two purebred dogs, one only a year old, and both a far cry from "natural" breeds).

jenns

They [the shelters] are not the ones who brought the dogs into the world in the first place

Excellent point.  Since reputable breeders do hold themselves accountable for each pup they bring to the world (whereas others don't, and even shelters don't/can't track every dog that comes through their doors) I think it is good for dogs as a species if we support them, and advocate them as a viable and ethical choice when thinking of purchasing a puppy. When the only place to get a dog will be reputable breeders, THAT will be the day when there won't be any need for shelters, and every dog can live out his life ALWAYS having a home, and an advocate who is concerned for his welfare.

jennie_c_d

  I find it odd coming from someone who owns two purebred dogs, one only a year old, and both a far cry from "natural" breeds

I already explained this earlier on in the thread.