Educated a co-worker on pet stores

ORIGINAL: BEVOLASVEGAS

Most legitimate breeders do have homes chosen for all of their pups before delivery.  With that being said, there are occasions where the litter size is expected to be 7 pups & the bitch has 10 pups.  That leaves 3 pups unspoken for.  What does the breeder do?  They surely don't sell the extras to a pet store!!!  These breeders spend the time to find a home that the puppy will thrive in.

Legitimate breeders also take dogs that they have bred back if, for some reason, the new owner can no longer keep the dog.  No matter how much screening you do, there will come a time that the breeder will have to take a pup/dog back.  Again, the breeder surely doesn't turn around & sell this returned pup to a pet store.

In my experience, when a good breeder doesn't have pups, or is not expecting a litter in the foreseeable futrue, they will always refer you to rescue.  I have NEVER been referred to a pet store by a good breeder.

 
What you say is fine and I wish all breeders or suppliers of puppies have the same high standards.  But aren't the legitimate breeder basically a mom and pop shop.  Afterall the breeder(s) on this forum stated they do not make their dogs available to JQP. 
 
Now you recently announced you got your MBA so that has to include an economic course covering supply and demand.  If there are 65 million dogs in US households and it takes about 10 million puppies (a guess) added each year in order to maintain that number, do you think the legitimate breeder can meet that demand. 
 
The dog world is the worst on keeping stats so I don't know the breakdown of how many puppies each type of breeders provides to JQP.  Do you?

The dog world is the worst on keeping stats so I don't know the breakdown of how many puppies each type of breeders provides to JQP. Do you?

I have no idea, but I'd rather admit I have no idea and leave it at that than make stuff up and say breeders turn away JQP and can never meet any sort of demand.  Six months ago, I was JQP and I found MORE than enough to meet my demand, but decided a puppy was not right for me and adopted an adult instead.  One of the litters I was really REALLY interested in I know for a fact that all puppies immediately ended up in good homes.  Again, I was never turned away because I wanted a family companion and had never had this breed of dog or ANY dog before in my life.  It was not an issue.  Now, if I wanted a Czech dog from established working lines with high drive, they would have said no, but refered me elsewhere.  It's not that they don't want to give you their dog, they want you to have the BEST dog that is right for YOU and if it's not their dog, they will help you find that dog with someone else.  It's not really that complex or difficult.  When I first started looking I had no clue what I was doing or where to go, but the breeders I met and chatted with helped me a lot and pointed me in the right direction the whole way through.  All people have to do is take the first step...The main reason good breeders gave me such a good impression is because they want to help you find the right dog, they want it to be the best match possible for you and the dog (whether it's their dog, their friend's dog, a dog from their rescue, or a dog from the shelter).  A pet store will not say anything at all as long as you are a potential sale. 

ORIGINAL: Liesje

The dog world is the worst on keeping stats so I don't know the breakdown of how many puppies each type of breeders provides to JQP. Do you?

I have no idea, but I'd rather admit I have no idea and leave it at that than make stuff up and say breeders turn away JQP and can never meet any sort of demand. 

 
Sorry there is no proof anything I said has been misrepresented.  Rwbeagles made the quote that she does not supply her pups to the JQP nor would she ever.  Legitimate breeders have no competitors.  Is that enough.  Looking at the situation from your personal level is not how the typical consumer operates.  I wish all the puppy would do what you did but that is not going to happen when you mutiply by 10 million.
 
You just don't get it that if you eliminate any of the types of puppy suppliers, some one has to fill that gap.  You say there is no gap and that makes no sense to me.  Oh yeah, you said so what about the gap, those are probably the people that should not have dogs.  Please.   

Afterall the breeder(s) on this forum stated they do not make their dogs available to JQP. 

 
I guess that this statement would depend solely on what an individual's definition of JQP is.  I consider myself part of JQP. 
 
Without actually seeing that statement, I would make the assumption that this person is saying that they are very careful in their screening process.  I would assume that this breeder is very particular about selling to a first time owner, with little knowledge of the breed.
 
When I began my search for a Dobe, I was met with resistance, because I was going to be a first time Dobe owner.  After lengthy conversations with my breeder of choice, & my flying up to interact with her dogs, she decided that I would be a good candidate to own one of her Dobes, though she did mention breed rescue as well.  I put a deposit down, & was content to wait for a pup.  About 4 weeks later, I rescued Bevo from euthanasia.  I contacted the breeder, & she was estatic to hear that I had rescued.  I've had Bevo for 4 years, & I am still in contact with this breeder as well.  She has given me a wealth of information on my breed.
 

  Now you recently announced you got your MBA so that has to include an economic course covering supply and demand.  If there are 65 million dogs in US households and it takes about 10 million puppies (a guess) added each year in order to maintain that number, do you think the legitimate breeder can meet that demand. 

 
I've actually had my MBA for about 5 1/2 years![]  To answer your question, yes I do believe that reputable breeders & rescue can keep up with demand.  The biggest reason for that are the many different breed choices. 
 
For example, I know that you are a Great Dane man.  If everyone only wanted to own Danes, then there would be no way that supply would meet demand.  Fortunately, there are people who prefer other breeds, therefore lowering the number of Danes needed to met demand. 

ORIGINAL: BEVOLASVEGAS

...To answer your question, yes I do believe that reputable breeders & rescue can keep up with demand.  The biggest reason for that are the many different breed choices. 

 
Then why don't they.  Why was it that I never heard of a "responsible" breeder before I came to this forum.  When I purchases my many puppies of different breeds in my life all the suppliers whether they pet shops or byb represented their dogs the same as a "responsible" breeder. 
 
I am very skeptical of your response that the"responsible" breeder can meet the demand because of the elitist attitudes of breeders on this forum toward JQP and other types of breeders.  There would be a lot of screening and those consumer would get their dogs elsewhere thus creating another market.

Why was it that I never heard of a "responsible" breeder before I came to this forum.

 
I would assume that it was because you didn#%92t put in the time extensively researching the breed that you were interested in before purchasing.
 
After I decided that a Doberman was the right breed for me, I began researching the breed. I spent about 9 months learning as much as I could about the breed before I was ready to contact a breeder. I knew about all of the health problems commonly associated with the breed. I knew what to expect in the aspect of what their temperment should be. I knew that if I didn#%92t begin training & socialization immediately, that I would likely have a dog that I could not control. I was fully aware of what I was getting myself into, before I ever contacted a breeder.
 

There would be a lot of screening and those consumer would get their dogs elsewhere thus creating another market.

 

 
Screening needs to be done PERIOD. These breeders are looking to protect both their dogs, & potential owners. They want to make sure that their breed will mesh well with that specific family#%92s lifestyle.
 
For example, if a breeder sold a Dobe to a person with no dog experience, & a lackadaisical attitude about training & socialization; disaster is very likely. Selling to this type of person would essentially be the same as handing a 3 year old a loaded gun. Sure it would be cute for a little while, but eventually someone will get hurt. Breeders can easily recognize people who have done their homework & those who have chose a breed because it was cute, or a family member had one years ago.
 
The only reason that people would forego a reputable breeder, is because they are too lazy to educate themselves before contacting the breeder.  I have found that reputable breeders are more than willing to spend time helping out those who are willing to help themselves.

dpu,

i hope i have misread your posts. are you saying that puppy mills serve a vital purpose to potential dog owners? surely you have seen the web sites showing the horrific conditions the breeding dogs are forced to live in?

that seems in conflict with everything i have ever heard from the people i know who do rescue work.

i would think that if a person were turned down by a responsible breeder there must be a good reason. probably some of the same reasons a rescue would turn down a potential adopter.

Now you recently announced you got your MBA so that has to include an economic course covering supply and demand. If there are 65 million dogs in US households and it takes about 10 million puppies (a guess) added each year in order to maintain that number, do you think the legitimate breeder can meet that demand.

 
I can give you some number I know about puppies.
 
I think that the 10 mil number is high.  Probably closer to 8 mil.
The latest survey I saw was that there were about 75 mil dogs in households according to the APPMA.
I saw a number from a pet sellers association that stated that about 500,000 dogs were sold in pet stores last year.   I would be willing to bet that most are C(on)KC dogs.
The AKC registered about 870,000 dogs last year.  I would be willing to bet that was about 1/2 the number eligible to be registered.
Now most of the dogs from pet stores I am sure weren't AKC registered so I doubt that there is much overlap between these 2 numbers.
I believe that the UKC and and other players are really small potatos when it comes to registration numbers except in breeds that aren't recognized by the AKC and I would bet that APBT is the major breed.
 
Labs far and away make up the largest number of dogs bred.  About 10% of the total litters and when you consider the litter size much higher in total numbers.
In fact the top ten breeds in the AKC make up about 50% of the total.
 
 
So if you look at these numbers and if they hold any reality the majority of dogs aren't coming from the AKC breeders or pet stores. 
 
The thing is that as long as the demand for puppies is there there will be someone willing to produce them.  If you severly restrict the supply of puppies from the US then these puppies will come from other countries.  We are allready seeing this in South Florida.  They are importing more and more puppies into the shelters down there from carribbian countries because people demand puppies.
 
As far as having enough puppies available in shelters read this story.
 
[linkhttp://www.caycompass.com/cgi-bin/CFPnews.cgi?ID=1024719]http://www.caycompass.com/cgi-bin/CFPnews.cgi?ID=1024719[/link]
 
 

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000

dpu,

i hope i have misread your posts. are you saying that puppy mills serve a vital purpose to potential dog owners?

i would think that if a person were turned down by a responsible breeder there must be a good reason. probably some of the same reasons a rescue would turn down a potential adopter.

 
The fact is puppymills exist because they supply demand, a demand that the "responsible" breeder has written off by saying that those people should not have dogs.  What I have been saying all the time is that breeders should organize as one professional group with the same breeding standards.  Since the "responsible" breeder has the most knowledge and experience, they should lead this.  But nooooo, they like their elitist and no competition position.  They like bashing JQP for purchasing puppies they won't supply. 

i hope i have misread your posts. are you saying that puppy mills serve a vital purpose to potential dog owners? surely you have seen the web sites showing the horrific conditions the breeding dogs are forced to live in?

that seems in conflict with everything i have ever heard from the people i know who do rescue work.

i would think that if a person were turned down by a responsible breeder there must be a good reason. probably some of the same reasons a rescue would turn down a potential adopter.

No, it's a smear campaign against people who have devoted their entire lives (sometimes multiple generations) to developing breeding programs that improve the health, temperament, and working ability of their dogs.  It's ALL breeders' faults puppy mills exist.  Makes so much sense, I know...

ORIGINAL: Liesje

i hope i have misread your posts. are you saying that puppy mills serve a vital purpose to potential dog owners? surely you have seen the web sites showing the horrific conditions the breeding dogs are forced to live in?

that seems in conflict with everything i have ever heard from the people i know who do rescue work.

i would think that if a person were turned down by a responsible breeder there must be a good reason. probably some of the same reasons a rescue would turn down a potential adopter.

No, it's a smear campaign against people who have devoted their entire lives (sometimes multiple generations) to developing breeding programs that improve the health, temperament, and working ability of their dogs.  It's ALL breeders' faults puppy mills exist.  Makes so much sense, I know...

 
I thought that I was the only person who felt that this was a smear campaign.  It's sad that someone can be so bitter about breeders who actually care what happens to their dogs.
 
I'm done [sm=beatdeadhorse.gif].  Oops, that might be considered animal abuse by some people.  Although, puppy mills aren't viewed as abusive at all.  Hmmmm, more strange logic there.......

Rwbeagles made the quote that she does not supply her pups to the JQP nor would she ever. Legitimate breeders have no competitors.

Wow, ONE person said that and now ALL breeders think JQP is unworthy and are totally unwilling to cooperate?  I'm sorry, that's way too much of a stretch even worth posting a reply about.  Gine is ONE person breeding say ONE litter a year (if that) of ONE breed of dog.  You're going to have to do a LOT better than this!

I am very skeptical of your response that the"responsible" breeder can meet the demand because of the elitist attitudes of breeders on this forum toward JQP and other types of breeders.

And we are very skeptical that any of your arguments have any crediblity since apparently they only stem from dealing with a few breeders on this forum alone.  How many responsible breeders have you actually met?  How many have you, self-proclaimed JQP, actually applied with?  You're the one that's always putting one's experience on a pedestal, and it seems like you are the only one here who has had such negative experiences with professional breeders, but it doesn't sound like you've actually met them, gone to visit their dogs, or applied with them.  See why we are skeptical?  Sorry you had some issues with members on this forum, but there's really no need to let those one or two people taint your opinion about tens of thousands of people you don't have experience with.

The fact is puppymills exist because they supply demand, a demand that the "responsible" breeder has written off by saying that those people should not have dogs.

i thought the purpose of this thread was to show that buying puppy mill dogs was not the only option or even one that should be considered?

perhaps if someone is turned down by a breeder they should investigate the reasons why and fix those problems before bringing a dog into a situation that will likely have a bad outcome, instead of going for a quick fix.. ie. a puppy mill or byb.

i havent found any of the breeder who post on this forum to be elitist. unless you think having the dog's best interests in mind is an elitist stance? trying to find a great home for a dog is not elitist.

i would contend that placing a dog in a home without proper screening is reckless to say the least. what screening process does petland use? whether your credit card is accepted? what screening process does the guy in the parking lot with a box of pups use? whether you have the cash on hand? does having the cash to pay for a pup ensure that you will provide a proper home?

as a rescuer do you have an application process for potential adopters? has your rescue ever turned down anyone?

i thought the purpose of this thread was to show that buying puppy mill dogs was not the only option or even one that should be considered?

Apparently it's the only option for millions of people who for whatever reason are too lazy to apply with breeders and somehow cannot find a single shelter, rescue, or stray dog within 100 miles of them.  It seems we've grossly underestimated the amount of people in this category, according to supply and demand figures that cannot be cited.

The fact is puppymills exist because they supply demand, a demand that the "responsible" breeder has written off by saying that those people should not have dogs. What I have been saying all the time is that breeders should organize as one professional group with the same breeding standards. Since the "responsible" breeder has the most knowledge and experience, they should lead this. But nooooo, they like their elitist and no competition position. They like bashing JQP for purchasing puppies they won't supply.

 
This whole discussion looks like another breeder bash. 
 
You know I wonder why anybody would want to start breeding nowadays since the breeder has been so vilified.  It is getting tougher and tougher to be able to breed dogs with all the government regulations being proposed and hate propaganda out there.  You know at one time getting a dog at a pet store wasn't a bad place to get a dog but with all puppy mill this and puppy mill that going on how could a breeder do anything but try to distance themselves from that.  Of course that they talk bad about the pet store because if they don't they will also be called puppy millers.  You wouldn't believe how much crap a friend of mine has put up with from the breeder haters.  Her dogs have been injured in their back yard.  She had to install video cameras to watch the entire property and and sheriff had a talk with a couple of suspected people before it stopped.  She almost stopped breeding when someone painted "better dead than bred" on her fence.
 
You talk about ramping up production.  Well that isn't that easy to do.  You can't just add more dogs.  Most breeders have their own personal standards they want to adhere to along with the breed standard.