Educated a co-worker on pet stores

As far as "purebreds being status symbols" I find that the "designer dog" movement sets the bar pretty high... and is really the current guilty party. And boy the puppymills/BYB's have been fast on the uptake. Look through any local newspaper "rare white...", "extra small..." "pomchi's..." "miniature boxers...." etc. And if you ask the people who purchase these dogs what breed they are and they proudly annouce to the world their dog is a "rare" X, Y or Z that "wasn't cheap."

Me walking my purebred has become a much less prestigious thing in the eye of the designer dog world... not that I care. But just to point out. If someone wants a status symbol they buy a $1500 mutt that is "rare", has like 40 hereditary problems and comes with a fancy "poo-poo" name.

Frankly I'm horrified by some people who claim to be dog enthusiasts but clearly see them as nothing but merchandise.

ORIGINAL: timsdat

Timsdat, you provided last year's number of puppies sold by Pet Shops at 500,000. Do you know the prior year? Do you see a trend?

Also, using your source of 75M dogs in US household, was there an increase from last year? Again, can you see a trend? I know this would be a guess, and knowing you, an educated guess, if there was change which of the Breeder type volume changed most.

I wrote a nice long answer and the system kicked me off when I posted and I lost it.  I'll get back with you tomorrow on it.  I ain't looking up the numbers again tonight.

I will give a number of quick facts though.  The number of dogs in households continue to rise each survey year.  Looked like about 1/2 mil each year.
The number of AKC litter registration number is down about 10,000 in the last 4 years.
Don't know about any of the other numbers.

Boy it would be great to know how many of these homes consider their dogs disposible. Dump their dog cause it's "bad" (ate their shoes)... buy a "good dog" from the pet store. ... find out that dog is bad..........

Frankly I'm horrified by some people who claim to be dog enthusiasts but clearly see them as nothing but merchandise.

 
Forget it I'm done.  If people want information go find it yourselves.  I was trying to supply a statistical non emotional analysis but I guess that is too upsetting.
 

ORIGINAL: timsdat

Frankly I'm horrified by some people who claim to be dog enthusiasts but clearly see them as nothing but merchandise.

Forget it I'm done.  If people want information go find it yourselves.  I was trying to supply a statistical non emotional analysis but I guess that is too upsetting.

And the information you are providing is greatly appreciated by me and I am sure by others.  For example, I have never seen the 75M number and the numbers breakdown by breeder type was totally unexpected.  With respect to volume I thought the reputable would be the lowest and the commercial being the largest.  Amstaffy gave me that impression.  I have learned that the reputable, because of their volume, has more clout or influence of how puppies are sold.  I wonder why they don't.

If others would just take the breakdown numbers and apply their emotional advocacy for a fix and then reshuffle the numbers and then ask themselves if the breeder type can handle the numbers that are reassigned.  What the emotional crowd is not looking at is the future results of their present advocacy.

The statistics I've seen place reputable at around 10-15%, commercial about the same, and BYBs at like 80% of all registered dogs, and I think that's accurate. (I think there's probably about a quarter of the commercial dogs could also be considered from BYBs, depending on the scale)I know very few folks with pet store dogs anymore- most people- not all, but most- have gotten that message. So that IS working. NOw we just need to get the message that 'all breeders are not created equal' out. 

ORIGINAL: Pwca

The statistics I've seen place reputable at around 10-15%, commercial about the same, and BYBs at like 80% of all registered dogs, and I think that's accurate. (I think there's probably about a quarter of the commercial dogs could also be considered from BYBs, depending on the scale)I know very few folks with pet store dogs anymore- most people- not all, but most- have gotten that message. So that IS working. NOw we just need to get the message that 'all breeders are not created equal' out. 

 
Please do.  Because someone like me, I had no idea this world even existed.  All I know is I wanted a dog in my life.  Next thing you know I'm stuck with all sorts of problems.  Not even just the surprise litter.....skin conditions, ear infections, parasites, worms, emotional issues.....just to name a few.  Scarred paw pads from what was obviously an existence in a wire cage.  This woman is a BYB, Reesee's breeder (not the other severely unstable woman that I purchased her from).  And I'm sure she is making a killing off these toy breeds.  From week to week she can have anywhere between one to half a dozen adds out for different "designer breed" puppies.  [linkhttp://buyit.charlotte.com/findit/pets/adoption_for_sale/O8ff19d4.htm?query=cocker]http://buyit.charlotte.com/findit/pets/adoption_for_sale/O8ff19d4.htm?query=cocker[/link]
 

ORIGINAL: timsdat

then all the breeds would go to h e !! in a hand basket?

No but all the things that were suggested were implented it would. 

Tell me how would you be able to make the sales of puppies from a retail outlet illegal while still allowing sales from other places.  That surely sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen.

No, I don't happen to think that 1-3 litters defines a responsible breeder.  It depends on quality not quantity.

Now how would you determine who is able to breed and who isn't.  I would love to see the qualifications list. 

When all these things are discussed one must also think on how they would be workable and enforced.

I'm not sure how it would be done, but do you deny that eliminating pet store sold dogs would be a bad thing?  Half the dogs sold in the local pet stores around here are the "doodle" craze dogs.  Mutts, not purebreds, fyi.


Don't take my suggestions as literal that this is what *I* want.  These are examples, hence the

(who could not produce more than 2 litters a year for example)

"for example" at the end. It was an example number.  I don't know what the right number would be, but some number low enough to outlaw large commercial breeding of dogs for the pet trade.

And I'm not saying that certain people would be allowed to or not to breed, I'm simply saying if we put a limit on the number of litters as AN IDEA, then that would cut down on puppymills because they would not be able to pop out 20-30 litters per year.  Without cutesy puppies in store windows that you can walk out with in 20 minutes, then fewer impulse buys will occur.  They will have to go through a breeder or rescue or shelter and therefor forced into being educated.  As to who is allowed, well, that would probably require a breeders license.  Perhaps different levels of cost for different levels of litters.  But then that leads to how do you control the number of litters?  Register them all with some national database?   That doesn't seem like a good idea, too little money to have enforcement.

As with anything, it will take education and mindset change of the human population.  And that ties into socio-economic status and many other factors. 

So maybe we should just give up.  Any dog surrendered or seized by/from an owner is euth'd, as are all dogs of questionable temperments.  There's a solid answer that doesn't require any more money or laws.  Not a good one though.  [>:]

ORIGINAL: NC_cockermama

ORIGINAL: Pwca

The statistics I've seen place reputable at around 10-15%, commercial about the same, and BYBs at like 80% of all registered dogs, and I think that's accurate. (I think there's probably about a quarter of the commercial dogs could also be considered from BYBs, depending on the scale)I know very few folks with pet store dogs anymore- most people- not all, but most- have gotten that message. So that IS working. NOw we just need to get the message that 'all breeders are not created equal' out. 

Please do.  Because someone like me, I had no idea this world even existed.  All I know is I wanted a dog in my life. 

 
I think it is very reasonable to separate the 80% BYB number in intentional and unintentional.  One is clearly part of the industry and the other is not.  Improvements can take separate and distinct paths.
 
The others percentages stated should be view in relative terms to each other.  
 
I agree that I just want a healthy dog in my life.  All the horrors stories stated about particular breeders relate to industry issues and not the consumer.  There will always be exceptions but who knows if they are the exceptions or the norm.  I believe it all comes down to who should the consumer trust.  Frankly, all breeders say the same thing about their dogs.  I also say that 'buyer beware' should also come into to play.  But the buyer should not be put through hoops or spend 9 months in trying to get a puppy. 
 

ORIGINAL: Xerxes
So tell me, where are these people that think having a purebred dog is a status symbol? 

I don't hang with these people and I seriously doubt that you do either. But do you think every person out there has the same view of dogs as you?

Today's Status Symbol Purebred Dog is Tomorrow's Overcrowded Shelter Problem

Many are buying a purebred puppy, not because of a love of a breed, but because of a perception that owning a purebred conveys some symbol of status on them. [link>http://www.muttshack.org/MuttShack_news-status.htm]http://www.muttshack.org/MuttShack_news-status.htm[/link]

Mixed-breed dog - Advantages and drawbacks

Some owners value a dog's pedigree as a status symbol and, therefore, have no use for mixed-breed dogs, whose market value is effectively zero; others particularly appreciate the physical or behavioral traits of certain breeds; still others ignore pedigree and, instead, value a dog's personality and health. In short, most dog owners believe that their dog's breed—and specifically his or her own dog—is the best sort of dog there is.
[linkhttp://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Mixed-breed_dog_-_Advantages_and_drawbacks/id/1771887]http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Mixed-breed_dog_-_Advantages_and_drawbacks/id/1771887[/link]

How to Rationalize Getting a Purebred Dog

If pushed, ask about your critics' glass houses; do they own status symbol purses, fancy cars or cell phones with all the bells and whistles—why should you be any less vulnerable to the lure of the beautiful, especially when it comes with unconditional love?
[linkhttp://www.ehow.com/how_2019363_rationalize-purebred-dog.html]http://www.ehow.com/how_2019363_rationalize-purebred-dog.html[/link]

She is a rescue dog...why is she looked down upon?

Unfortunately to many having a pure bred dog is sort of a status symbol. Similar to owning a big home or having a nice car in one of the fancy areas of town
[linkhttp://www.qeok.com/dogs/1463-dogs-6.html]http://www.qeok.com/dogs/1463-dogs-6.html[/link]

I could go on... I don't expect you know many of these people, but they're certainly out there. I've met them... Hang around on a breed-specific discussion board for a while and you will probably run into some, but they're more likely the people who don't know what we know about pet stores and bybs and so go there to get their little BMW-like or Prada-like accessory. And THAT, I believe is what Ixas_girl was saying.[]

(Sorry about the formatting and bolding - I can't seem to straighten it up - But I'm not yelling or frustrated, as the text may imply) []

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

ORIGINAL: DPU

Xerxes,

Not following your post at all.  Is your solution to improving the industry a matter of enforcing existing laws.  The scope of opportunities is huge, is that it for you?

Either get commercial breeders out from under the USDA or create more strict guidelines for those particular breeders.  DPU, have you ever been to a dog auction where they buy their "breeders" from?  Ever seen the conditions they keep the "Breeders" in? 

That's the reason that the regulations need to be changed or better enforcement of existing regulations. 

If you want to speak in economic terms, the supply of puppies cannot be considered good quality because the stock from which it is drawn is rife with problems, illnesses, disease and unsanitary conditions.  So if the quality of the product is suspect, does it matter to the end user?  Does the end user get a quality product for their investment?

Even so, wouldn't the BYB have an edge as far as market knowledge?  Knowing what the market will bear and bringing enough of that product to barely satisfy demand would increase overall worth, while keeping prices high and thus increasing profit.

Even better, having a proven supply line with proven net worth and quality of the product and ensuring strict standards are met continuously is the goal of the reputable breeder.  The reputable breeder ensures, as much as possible that the products adhere to particular guidelines and advises the end user of the end users rights and responsibilities as a user of said purchased product.  Keeping the supply low yet keeping quality high.

In other words, would you prefer to purchase an automobile that was built meeting only minimum standards, with no assurance (warranty) on quality, no customer support, and buy that product at an inflated price?  That's what it seems that the majority involved in this argument are saying.  They'd rather have a Yugo sold at a Lincoln price.

 
Again, just don't follow your post at all.  If you are saying uniform guidelines should be established for the industry and enforced within the industry and by law, then I agree.  The only acceptable deviation from the established guideliness would be upping the two breeding  factors in your post, quality and facility. 

ORIGINAL: FourIsCompany

But to many people, it IS a status symbol.

 
I don't know about the word 'status'.  To me it is self serving saying I have arrived and you have not.  I think with regards to owning a purebred it is devotion to dog type, an attention getter, pride, and purpose. 

ORIGINAL: probe1957

ORIGINAL: DPU

But do always keep in mind the destiny of the pet shop dog that doesn't get sold.  They too deserving saving.

Do you mean someone should actually BUY these dogs in the name of some nobler cause?  Say it ain't so.

So what are you views on the puppy industry as a whole and how improvements can come about? 
To answer your question, yes, it is a legitimate form of Advocacy and Protest.  Here are a couple of quotes from another thread about a dog's fate that you probably missed.

rwbeagles quote:
I think Spock says it best..."the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one". In this instance....the HS made a hard decsion.

DPU quote:
This was the theme in Startrek II, centering around sacrifice.  Spock was half Vulcan and wanted so much to be void of human emotion.  His humanity side came from his mother and in Startrek III the spin on the "one" and "many" are changed. In dialogue between Spock and KirK:
Spock:  My father says that you have been my friend.  You came back to me.
Kirk:  You would have done the same for me.
Spock:  Why would you do that?
Kirk:  Because the need of the One outweigh the need of Many.

In a conversation between Spock and his mother:
Amanda:  Spock, does the good of the Many outweigh the good of One?
Spock:  I would accept that as an axiom.
Amanda:  Then you stand her, alive, because of a mistake made by your flawed,
         feeling human friend.  They have sacrificed their future because they
         believe that the good of the one-you-was more important to them.

I think Kirk and Amanda said it best and I think Spock was ultimately influenced to abandon his logic.  The little dog that was PTS had a champion on its side. 

ORIGINAL: DPU
I think with regards to owning a purebred it is devotion to dog type, an attention getter, pride, and purpose. 

Each person has their personal reasons (and priorities) for either adopting from a rescue, buying from a breeder or going to the pound. Notice I'm not voicing a moral judgment one way or another for whatever their reasons are. My reasons for getting a purebred dog were first, love of the breed and second, functionality. And it's clear that some people want a dog that other people will envy them for or something. Like a Prada bag or a Porshe. That's not MY reason, not YOUR reason, but I think we have to accept that some people want purebred dogs for JUST that reason.

Do you agree?
Xerxes, do we agree on this? [sm=happy.gif]

Actually where I live the ones with dogs that seem to flaunt like that either have teacups or designer dogs.  Most people where I live actually have purebreds, not mutts.  Actually, in my entire neighborhood there's no mutts.  So having a purebred really doesn't mean that much. 
 
My cousin bought a $800 yorkie to breed to her peke to make 'valuable porkies'.  And that had NOTHING to do with the breed, just the price tag.  Of course they live in a very different kind of area than I do. 
 
I certainly didn't go out looking for a papillon because it was a small fluffy dog tat is somewhat unknown by most people so I could carry it arround in purse and shout out about it's $2000 price tag and Ch pedigree.  I got a papillon because that's what I wanted. 
 
And having a purebred and more specifically a show dog on a dog message board DOES get you a lot of criticism from people.  I don't know if you don't notice it, but it's there.  I don't feel the need to constantly justify my decision to go to a reputable breeder to buy a dog.

ORIGINAL: FourIsCompany

That's not MY reason, not YOUR reason, but I think we have to accept that some people want purebred dogs for JUST that reason.

Do you agree?
Xerxes, do we agree on this? [sm=happy.gif]

I always make room for the exception, as rare as it may be.  Anything is always possible.
 
Not related to this, but does any know how you type the sound of a chicken in a post.