Educated a co-worker on pet stores

So you want some random person without any breeding knowledge putting two random Cardigans together and selling them to whomever comes along with enough cash?  That's not something I'd want for any breed of mine.

I can only speak for my breeds, but I think that any lab or pit bull person worth their salt would agree that both breeds would only benifit from a reduction in BYBs.

 
Now I would agree with you about labs.  Their litter registrations alone account for 10% of the total AKC litter registration.  Now as to "pit bulls".  What do you mean, Am Staffs, Staffy Bulls, or APBT.  I know that there are very few litter registrations for Am Staffs and Staffy Bulls.
 
You know you would pay more but what do you think the price for a lab would be if there were only say 100,000 born each year.  I'm sure that there are less than 5,000 breeders of Labs that could be considered responsible.  Anyone a member of the national breed club for Labs that could give some idea of the number of good lab breeders out there???
 
 

ORIGINAL: timsdat
Where is the definitive definition of a puppy mill.

timsdat, Got any good links for that? For looking at what are the specifications for healthy, human breeding conditions vs inhospitable ones?

I posted a link to the usda requirements. 

So by reason of your arguments, Timsdat, if we got rid of puppymills, then all the breeds would go to h e !! in a hand basket?  I find that really hard to believe.  I mean, aren't the responsible breeders against puppy mills?  If they are against them, then why would getting rid of them be a bad thing?

I'm not saying that "two litters" a year is the answer, but maybe it's 3?  Most people seem to agree that 1 or 2 litters a year MAX is part of the definition of a responsible breeder, so why would that be bad?

And putting restrictions that you can't buy from pet stores... isn't that what we all want?  Isn't that why people say don't buy from pet stores?  I just don't get that.....

There will always be oops litters and accidents.  It's nature and you can't stop it.  But if it wasn't easy for JQP to walk into a pet store and buy a dog that very minute, don't you think we'd have better luck getting them to really THINK about what they're doing and a chance to educate them?

I'm not saying limit breeding of dogs, I'm saying limit who can do it.  Don't let dogs be a commodity like the puppymills create. 

then all the breeds would go to h e !! in a hand basket?

 
No but all the things that were suggested were implented it would. 
 
Tell me how would you be able to make the sales of puppies from a retail outlet illegal while still allowing sales from other places.  That surely sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen.
 
No, I don't happen to think that 1-3 litters defines a responsible breeder.  It depends on quality not quantity.
 
Now how would you determine who is able to breed and who isn't.  I would love to see the qualifications list. 
 
When all these things are discussed one must also think on how they would be workable and enforced.
 

I think the # of litters per year is not the answer. I mean, someone like Gina who breeds but alos has young kids and a job and all just plain doesn't have time to do more than one a year properly, I don't think. Someone I used to know from another dog board, though, who is retired, travels the country from dog show to dog show all weekend and is quite well off, could easily raise 3-4 litters a year, if not 5-6 just because he has the spare time to do it and do it right as far as socialization goes. And if you're talking toy breeds, where an average litter is 2 pups, and you're trilled to get three? 6 litters isn't a lot if you're campaigning multiple dogs out with handlers, you co-own a couple and they live with co-owners, and you have the contacts and waiting list for both pet and show pups. And where do co-ownerships come into this? If I co-own Mal with his breeder (I don't, but say I did), and she breeds one litter and then wants to use Mal on one of her bitches and I raise the litter, who's numbers does it count to? What if I lease the bitch but she gets all but one puppy which we co-own?

There's just too many factors and I can't see how it could be ethically, humanely, and most important, practically and enforcably regulated.

Cait (who is having a love affair with adverbs today...)

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000

ORIGINAL: DPU

I don't know anyone involved in rescues that supports puppy mills.

ORIGINAL: DPU
Until I get the puppy that I want (the demand) I will keep going to the lesser responsible puppy supplier.

your words?

regardless of the proximity of a puppy store to a potential dog owner, i will never support puppy mill dogs as a viable option.

Yes, those are my words and both statements are true.  Since doing rescue work and acquiring a few residence dogs prior, I have not purchased a Pet Shop puppy as a resident dog.  So, I don't know anyone including myself that does rescue and supports puppymills.  And my own personal experience on Pet Shop dogs was not the horror stories described as other members on this board.  I may have lucked out.

The second statement is true because I will always have a dog in my home and the options available to me (and not in any order of importance) are Reputable Breeders, Responsible Breeders, Responsible Commercial, Commercial,  Pet Shops,  Rescue Groups,  Brokers, Internet, and I am sure there are a lot more.

I purposely have always said I am JQP who does volunteer work.  Members here elevate themselves above JQP and always blame, blame, blame JQP for all the dog's woes.  For some reason you think you can control JQP by complaining and whining.  I don't understand why you don't get that you can control JQP by the choices available. 

So Cyclefiend2000 and all the others that say there is a puppymill supporter in your midst, what is your commitment to reduce the supporter's choices.  Are you protesting in front of the stores?  Are you passing out fliers,  Are you making advocacy speeches at public or private gatherings.  Are writing your govt rep.  Are you communitcating with the other suppliers and trying to organize them (hmmm-my advocacy).  What are you doing?  What is your commitment.

If I was you I would have used the below quotes by DPU in order to give your point creditability.  I made those statements as a challenge to the way the breeding industry operates and the rehoming of breeding pairs after they have served their usefulness.  I have not purchased a Pet Shop puppy.
 

Thank you Mrv for the respectful response.  I apologize to you if my previous comment was flippant...but broccoli?

Do not think that I do not see or understand your views.  I most certainly do and I can easily say that yes there is a legitimate niche for satisfying a need and want for certain dog owners. It just seems so convenient and beneficial to one side.

My strength, my fortitude comes from clear black and white views.  To me gray areas represents doubt.  You can not do my volunteer work with having doubts.  Can I switch from black to white and vice versa.  Yes.  When I first came here I thought it was ok to buy pets from pet shops and a breeder (no distinction).  Since being here, the forum has enlightened me to not honor this practice.  Today, after this thread, I have switched back and I will look at these dogs as rescues and take them in.  I know the risk and I am willing to accept it.  I hope someone will come up with another way to stop these practices. 

Mrv, I understand what you are saying and I understand the economics and the perceived encouragement of supporting the practice.  But these dogs deserve to be rescued too, just as the breeder's .  To date nothing has had an effect on the practice.  I believe the dog professional has the strength to do something about it.  Rather than advocating boycott, find another way.  I am only one person and I am doing what I am doing with a clear conscious. 

The below quotes are yours and pretty much sum of the what I consider the opposing views.  You must now respect my path. 

It is up to the person looking for a dog to make their own choice
 
In breeds in which I participate, rehoming is an honored pursuit
 
Rehomes are just as valid as rescue,,, in fact more so economically,,, because they allow rescue dollars to be spent on dogs who have no other resources or support.
 
Rehoming is not about getting "Rid" of a dog.  It is about getting a dog a loving home.  I fail to see how that can be considered a heinous act.

hat many posters here DO buy from pet shops, and their feelings have been hurt.

Who exactly would that be? All the poster's who have taken you to task about your extremely insulting insuations did not buy from a pet store so I take it you are just trying to insult people again. Am I getting it?

So Cyclefiend2000 and all the others that say there is a puppymill supporter in your midst, what is your commitment to reduce the supporter's choices. Are you protesting in front of the stores? Are you passing out fliers, Are you making advocacy speeches at public or private gatherings. Are writing your govt rep. Are you communitcating with the other suppliers and trying to organize them (hmmm-my advocacy). What are you doing? What is your commitment.

if you can in good conscientious buy a pup from a pet store knowing the potential horrific conditions the breeding dogs are living in when there are other means to legitimately obtain a dog or puppy, more power to ya. i cant.

what am i doing....

i spread the word to people i know who are looking for a dog or thinking about adding a dog to their family. i encourage everyone to seek a rescue or go to the local shelter or HS 1st, especially if they dont have a specific breed in mind and are just looking for a good family pet. even if they are looking for a specific breed i try to steer them to breed rescues. above all, i try as nicely as i can to let them know why i think buying from a pet store isnt a good idea.

cbs sunday morning show ran a story a while back about "designer" dogs (basically puppy mill mutts). i wrote them a letter stating my opinion and why i thought it was wrong to promote this "industry". i believe many people on this forum did the same.

my wife and i are on the safety commitee for our subdivision. we invited two ladies from a local group called "speak for animals" to come and talk about dog safety, why you shouldnt keep your dog on a chain, and the horrors of puppy mills.

based on this meeting, i now keep copies of their monthly magazine at my office for people to read. this magazine touches on many animal issue (including puppy mills), and gives free advertising to local rescues and the local HS'es and has numbers and addresses for the local shelter.

we adopt.

could i do more? you bet. however, we do have three dogs of our own that require some amount of attention.

as to those two quotes, i have no idea where those came from. i looked back through this thread and didnt see those anywhere. maybe i missed them? twice? believe it or not i do not make a point to read every post you make throughout this entire forum. []

ORIGINAL: Xerxes
Actually, the majority of people on this board that have pure-bred dogs have them because of predictability.  I'd hardly think that having a Lab or a Golden or a Shepherd is a status thing. 

But to many people, it IS a status symbol. Certainly not many of us here on this board, but we don't necessarily represent the majority of people buying purebred dogs (I don't believe.) At any rate, there are millions of people out there who see Paris Hilton's chi and decide thay must have one. To buy shoes, you go to a shoe store, to buy a car you go to a car store, to buy a dog, you go to a pet store. They don't know any better.

And that's Ixas_girl's point (I believe). Many people see owning a purebred dog as a status symbol. They have no idea what they're doing, they don't think beyond getting little Timmy a pup just like the one that's in the Petco commercial. So they go out on Saturday to the pet store and get a Golden, just like the one on TV. So much easier than looking for a breeder or doing research! Once I read Ixas_girl's comments and the ones following (her explanation) I understood what she was saying.

I admit I was a little shocked when I first read it and if I were the type of person to get offended, I may have. But if you don't think owning a GSD is a status symbol to a lot of people, I suggest you come and take my dogs for a walk down a city street. I get tired of people mooning over my dogs. And that's JUST what many people who buy from a pet store or byb want. If they knew better, they'd research and go to a reputable breeder. But since they're just getting a dog, they figure they should look in the paper or visit the nearest pet store or just pick one off the Internet.

I honestly think people don't know. Just my opinion and I hope I haven't insulted anyone. [sm=happy.gif]

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000

believe it or not i do not make a point to read every post you make throughout this entire forum. []

 
Oh, now I understand why you are in the dark on certain dog matters.  []  I am kidding of course. 
 
Seriously, good volunteer work and big change is often started at the community level.
 
Timsdat, you provided last year's number of puppies sold by Pet Shops at 500,000.  Do you know the prior year?  Do you see a trend? 
 
Also, using your source of 75M dogs in US household, was there an increase from last year?  Again, can you see a trend?  I know this would be a guess, and knowing you, an educated guess, if there was change which of the Breeder type volume changed most.

But to many people, it IS a status symbol.

Where are these people?  I don't see them and I go to adoption events, fund raisers, pet stores, the local shelter.  Maybe I'm blind.  I don't know.  For every 10 dogs in my area, 2 or 3 are labs, 1 or 2 are Goldens or boxers and 1 or 2 are purebred toys add another 1 for GSDs and the rest (except for the oddball ones) are shelter mixes. 

In fact there are more shelter snobs in my area that thumb their noses at those of us that have purebred dogs.  The second question I always encounter is "Did you get him from a rescue?"  And since the answer is always "no" I usually get an attitude back from them.

I just don't see where this status symbol thing is coming from.  I see purebred dogs everywhere I go.  Heck most of the people I run into on my walks aren't snobby about their dogs-they like the breed for it's predictability. 

So tell me, where are these people that think having a purebred dog is a status symbol?  I want to meet one, just one.

Timsdat, you provided last year's number of puppies sold by Pet Shops at 500,000. Do you know the prior year? Do you see a trend?

Also, using your source of 75M dogs in US household, was there an increase from last year? Again, can you see a trend? I know this would be a guess, and knowing you, an educated guess, if there was change which of the Breeder type volume changed most.

 

getting little Timmy a pup

 
Timmy doesn't need a pup, he has Sprite!!!![]