Educated a co-worker on pet stores

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

But given how much indignation's been expressed over my speculating about pet shop consumers, and why they prefer purebreds to shelter dogs, it's become obvious that many posters here DO buy from pet shops, and their feelings have been hurt.

Are you suggesting that the majority of posters on THIS THREAD buy from pet stores? Because that is one hell of an accusation to make.

And no, I do not agree. There are plenty of individuals who breed dogs in a manner that I do not agree with and I do not consider them puppymills.

 
Therein lies the problem.  Where is the definitive definition of a puppy mill.
There is a segment that believes that anyone that breeds dogs is irresponible and therefore a puppy mill.
There are very responsible breeders that get the puppy mill label thrown at them because other responsible breeders think they breed too many dogs.
Commercial breeders always get the puppy mill label hung on them even though they follow all the USDA and AWA laws and procedures.
 
Without a definition as to what a puppy mill is I don't believe using that term can be useful because of the varying uses of that word.
 
 
 

ORIGINAL: timsdat

And no, I do not agree. There are plenty of individuals who breed dogs in a manner that I do not agree with and I do not consider them puppymills.

Therein lies the problem.  Where is the definitive definition of a puppy mill.
There is a segment that believes that anyone that breeds dogs is irresponible and therefore a puppy mill.
There are very responsible breeders that get the puppy mill label thrown at them because other responsible breeders think they breed too many dogs.
Commercial breeders always get the puppy mill label hung on them even though they follow all the USDA and AWA laws and procedures.

Without a definition as to what a puppy mill is I don't believe using that term can be useful because of the varying uses of that word.

This is pretty much what I think of as a puppymill, and this is also what most dog people I know believe to be a puppymill.

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Puppy_mill

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

Sally, was Jack an impulse purchase at a mall pet shop for you? If not, then why quote me, then claim insult, when I was referring to "those" buyers who support puppy mills by buying in pet shops? If you take the time to read the whole post of mine that you quoted from, you'll see I'm not making judgments, but asking questions. (For example, "I haven't said that papered purebred breeders are bad are wrong, I'm simply puzzling out pieces of the industry. What's bad about that?")

I thought, by nature of the title of the thread, and the fact that we have a sticky in this section, there was agreement that buying from pet stores supports bad breeding practices. But given how much indignation's been expressed over my speculating about pet shop consumers, and why they prefer purebreds to shelter dogs, it's become obvious that many posters here DO buy from pet shops, and their feelings have been hurt.

For those of you who buy from pet shops, that are offended at my wondering about your motivations, I am truly sorry. But, I believe Bradley has something he'd like you to see:

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000
perhaps you need to take a look at this web site..http://stoppuppymills.org/

maybe seeing the pictures many puppy mill dogs have to endure for their whole lives will be helpful?

[sm=eek.gif]

Wow.  Just wow.  Care to red ink yourself?  Because you most certainly deserve it. 

Ixas, I agree with you that for may people, purebreds *are* a status symbol.  I don't think that is true of the posters here, and you don't seem to either.  Instead of getting snotty, why don't you EXPLAIN the misunderstanding?  Holy cow, how can you ask good behavior of other people on the forum and yet act like this yourself?  I'm not trying to bash you, but I wish you could see that it is inappropriate for you to act this way.

This is pretty much what I think of as a puppymill, and this is also what most dog people I know believe to be a puppymill.

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Puppy_mill

 
So it sounds like anyone who is not following the exist care and sheltering laws is a puppy mill.  Is that right???

Ok, so it's a long thread, NP, here's a shortcut.

ORIGINAL: sillysally

Ixas_girl---"For example, why do so many people want to buy "purebreds", instead of the sweet mutts down at the shelter? Hmmm. Could it have something to do with status?"

Yes, this is a question. In a discussion where people were wondering what sends people to pet shops to buy dogs. Preference and style was one of the reasons being looked at, before I even entered the conversation.

"There are status dogs that go through the rigorous breeding/homing process."

Yes, as opposed to puppy mill pups which are called purebreds but lack the careful genetic and breeding standards of the reputable breeders. As far as I can make out, people are describing the reputable and arduous process to create elite animals, great athletes, workers, competitors. These are status animals, status = means something, as opposed to "has no status" = indeterminate.

So, if you put my statements above together, and add in the posts I've made over the last several pages, you get:

"Do pet shop customers prefer purebred dogs over shelter dogs because purebreds are perceived as being something special (has status) and shelter dogs are seen as being nothing special (no status)?"

What makes this question poignant, is that, from what I've learned in this thread, pet shop "purebreds" haven't got the careful genetics and breeding that the term "purebred" implies. So, I want to know if people are buying the SYMBOL of a purebred, rather than an actual purebred, and if so, what attracts them to that symbol.

Does that help? As I've said, many time in this thread, I don't know about breeding politics, and am trying to learn something here.

"Did my exploration of statusizing, regarding reasons people might buy puppy mill/byb pups make you somehow feel accused of being selfish or status seeking?"

Yes, Glenda posted, "So I guess that makes me what? Selfish? Status seeking?", so I posted to find out if it was my words that she was referring to. I still don't know, actually. since my question still hasn't been answered: since I was talking about people who buy puppy mill dogs, why would people who buy from reputable breeders be offended?

Sally, you see my confusion?

I finally made it through the whole thread... first my initial things that jumped out at me.

I personally do not support breeders who re-home dogs when they are done breeding and showing. As evident by that other thread, obviously we don't all agree on whether or not re-homing is a responsible thing to do, so you cannot simply attribute re-homing to ALL breeders that are "responsible."

Not to pick at a point, but Gina rehomed a bitch that she no longer wished to breed.....  so your statement earlier that she was a responsible breeder is now false?  Not wishing to argue this, just pointing out something.

When the county AC is full, animals are moved to shelters with room or shelters where people have been wanting puppies and not getting them.  Likewise, if someone comes to a rescue looking for say a Pointer, the rescue will come to our shelter and pull a Pointer.  People get what they want where and when they want it, more animals have forever homes, less animals die.  THAT is a win-win situation. Again, puppy mills NEVER factor into the equation.

But they do.  Indirectly because many of those dogs might have come from a puppy mill in the first place....

I am still boggling over this thread. Do we really have here someone so incredibly involved in rescue actually saying puppy mills are just fine?

I don't see where everyone reads this from DPU.  My take is simply that he's trying to figure out how to come up with a solution. And I'm astounded that people think this.  But perhaps I'm the one not reading enough into this?


Second: My take on this thread is that DPU feels that breeding dogs is a problem, period.  And he attempted to find out where they came from and what factors supply and demand have in that.  Not that he supports PM or BYB or anything like that.

Third:  In that demand number, how many of those are impulse buys from pet stores?  How many taken from a box in the Wally World parking lot?  How many found on the street by a loving soul? 

If the only places people could BUY dogs from was a licensed breeder (who could not produce more than 2 litters a year for example) or from a shelter or rescue org, then we have probably cut the demand some simply because it's not as easy to get a dog.  If all dogs leaving a shelter or rescue were s/n before leaving, then we've cut down on unintentional or accidental breedings and hence cut down on the supply, which should match the reduction in demand right?

Seems to me that we could cut both supply and demand by quite a bit if it was simply illegal to be a commercial breeder (large commercial breedings for mass market types) of dogs, cats, etc.  The problem with this is that too many people in this country don't care about dogs.  They don't think of them like most of us do here, so mass producing is not a "problem" in their eyes so they won't back any legislation against it.

I used to go to a pet store that sold dogs and cats because it was the only place in town to sell rats.  I saw way too many young college co-eds buying cute little puggles (OMGosh!! Not even a purebred!!!!!) because they were cute.  Sheesh....


and for what it's worth, I didn't think anyone here has attacked anyone else in this thread.  Just my [sm=2cents.gif].

Actually, the majority of people on this board that have pure-bred dogs have them because of predictability.  I'd hardly think that having a Lab or a Golden or a Shepherd is a status thing. 

You could accuse me of being status seeking because of the breed of dog I am owned by, I don't mind.  It's not true, but I don't mind it.  I did research on what the breed was like, I talked to breeders, read books,  attended shows, met dog and made the decision.  And I've never regretted a single minute of it.  I think if you ask anyone that has a purebred why they bought their dog it was for reasons already stated...

How many people have come on this forum and asked "What breed is right for me?"  Many of us, even the purebred fanciers suggest shelter dogs or rescue dogs as a first option.  Why do they want to know a breed?  Because of predictability...at least a certain level of it.  You don't buy a Yorkie if you want a jogging partner, nor a boxer if you want a dog with low exercise requirements.  You expect certain parameters of predictability.

There is nothing in any of the quotes I pointed out to indicate that you are refering to pet store buyers only.  There are only referances to purebred dogs as creatures of "status," and the suggestion that purebred buyers, *not* pet store buyers specifically, get their dogs because of status.

If you are only refering to pet store buyers, then it would probably be in your best interest to be clear as to that point, rather than risk offending a number of purebred owners who most certainly do not see their dogs as objects of status.

One thing that I always find helpful is to read my posts at least twice before I post them, to be sure that my actual meaning is being properly conveyed.[sm=wink2.gif]  

Third: In that demand number, how many of those are impulse buys from pet stores? How many taken from a box in the Wally World parking lot? How many found on the street by a loving soul?

If the only places people could BUY dogs from was a licensed breeder (who could not produce more than 2 litters a year for example) or from a shelter or rescue org, then we have probably cut the demand some simply because it's not as easy to get a dog. If all dogs leaving a shelter or rescue were s/n before leaving, then we've cut down on unintentional or accidental breedings and hence cut down on the supply, which should match the reduction in demand right?

 
 
You better be careful about what you wish for.  Place too severe restrictions then dogs become only the property of the rich.  The price for a dog would become astromonical. Even if demand were cut in half 4 mil.  you would need close to 500,000 licensed breeders to fill that demand. Do you think that there is anywhere near that number of what people call responsible breeders now??
 
Also restricting breeding too much would destroy breeds as we know them.  You have to maintain genetic diversity.
 

Sorry, just not enough dogs available in those groups to satisfy demand, may be not enough to satify the demand of responsible dog owners.

 
I find purebreds at the shelter. Many times I have stated, (I'm sure you've kept count[]) that when Shadow passes to the bridge, I will be able to find a purebred Sibe at the local shelter, let alone a big city shelter.
 
Some people who have truly wanted a particular breed from a breeder were willing to wait. Yes, it was some status, to some, to have a pedigreed and cert'd dog. But just as importantly, they knew where the dog came from, lineage, line faults or lack thereof, general temperment of that line, which led to some assurances of temperment and workability. The people that buy from pet stores supplied by commercial breeders (aka really successful puppy mills) don't necessarily keep their pet, even if they paid $1,000 for a mixed breed, which cannot be titled or registered. Then, again, I saw a Shiba Inu in our county's shelter and that is rare around here. You won't find such a rare breed at Plano Pets and Grooming. But, somehow, that dog wound up here. And how does that happen? There had to have been a special breeder and an owner with a good chunk of expendable cash. Yet it wound up in the same place as the Heinz 57 mongrel.
 
We, here, feel each dog is important and worth struggling for. Some, such as you, DPU, extend great amounts of energy, resources, and time in foster and rescue. How would it be if people couldn't just go out and buy a dog just because they felt like it but had to wait for a breeder or adopt from the shelter? It might weed out the serious owner from the easy mark with too much cash in his/her pocket. OTOH,  I understand that there are people capable of caring for a pet right now and wanting a particular breed. And, if stats are to be believed, shelters have many, with transport being the only problem. You will be able to find your breed in a shelter somewhere. And there is no hard and fast guarantee that a shelter dog will have problems or that a purebred will be just like Lassie.
 
On the pragmatic side, I know that we can't change the world tomorrow, which is why I know I will be able to find the dog I want in a shelter sometime in the future.

Sally,

Thanks for your response. I appreciate your taking the time hear what I was saying. []

I had said these things, but I guess they can't clarify if they aren't read:

Liesje, I don't see how an examination of status makes you feel the need to justify yourself. If the question is: why do people buy from puppy mills rather than good breeders or shelters, we can either just dismiss all "those" people as stupid and lazy, or we can look at what makes up their desire for and access to animals.

...

ETA: ottoluv, If consumers were educated enough to understand that purebreds were more likely to be physically healthy and mentally balanced due to their selective and careful breeding, they wouldn't be buying mass produced puppies, right? So, if good standards isn't what's driving people to puppy mills, what is? I have taken up the question of status seeking as a point to examine. What would you suggest instead?

But in order to do problem solving, (or simply something other than complaining and arguing) the pieces of the puzzle must be laid out and named. The naming of the pieces is where the arguing is happening, so moving forward to problem solving can't happen.

It seems there's a history to this conversation, that I, for one am not privy to. But here we are in this conversation, now. And, it seems reasonable to analyze the niche that each type of breeder serves, in order to understand the whole market.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl
Yes, that's exactly what I was asking! [] People who want quality dogs, elite competitors, athletes and workers, will go to a good breeder whose lines produce the specific type of dog they want. So what is is about purebreds that sends all the other people to pet stores, rather than shelters? People want purebreds, but why do they want one if they don't care enough to look into the standards, practices and genetics involved in creating a solid and healthy purebred pup?

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl
So far, I've learned that posters have a variety of opinions about why people buy puppy mill/byb pups: perception, preference, ignorance, non-standardized industry, marketing, ease, cost, access, papering. I have also heard that breeders don't want to be blamed and legislated because of this problem, and that other kinds of restrictive legislation are not popular. I've learned that shelter politics are more complicated than I could have imagined. [&o] I hear posters wishing the public understood the issues, and that the public should be different and more responsible, etc. I'm interested to see where the numeric breakdown of breeding volume is going. []

...

Anyway, assuming there is a problem, even though I'm still not clear what causes it (maybe simply a little bit of what everyone suggested), besides advising our friends to only get dogs from reputable breeders or shelters, what else do people do to help? Sounds like some posters are pretty handy with research, and others are active in breed associations, and others do fostering to care for shelter animals. I've been impressing neighbor kids with my shelter mutt, to encourage them to adopt rather than breed their own intact dogs.

ORIGINAL: Xeph

But don't try to tell me that rescue is completely selfless, because if there weren't SOMETHING in it for the human (even if it is just emotional satisfaction), we wouldn't do it.

 
Even though my brain is numb from reading this all in one sitting, I do agree.  If rescue was completely selfless (and this is coming from someone who has done it) then there would be no satisfaction when that abused dog finds the right home or when that abandoned mother finally finds hers. 
 
Now I have a question for those that have proposed that having a purebred dog means you're seeking status.  I have two.  Neither were purchased from a breeder.  Am I still a status seeker in your eyes because my dogs' parents happen to be of the same breed? 
 
And for the record, I don't agree with puppy mills.  There's no need for them.  Don't care what anyone says.  If you can't find a dog from a responsible breeder or a rescue, well there's always animal shelters and animal control.  Everyone has the right to have a dog/cat?  Great.  Most animal shelters will give you an animal if you have current ID and money in hand. 
 
Gimme, gimme, gimme... that's all it is.

ORIGINAL: timsdat

Third: In that demand number, how many of those are impulse buys from pet stores? How many taken from a box in the Wally World parking lot? How many found on the street by a loving soul?

If the only places people could BUY dogs from was a licensed breeder (who could not produce more than 2 litters a year for example) or from a shelter or rescue org, then we have probably cut the demand some simply because it's not as easy to get a dog. If all dogs leaving a shelter or rescue were s/n before leaving, then we've cut down on unintentional or accidental breedings and hence cut down on the supply, which should match the reduction in demand right?

You better be careful about what you wish for.  Place too severe restrictions then dogs become only the property of the rich.  The price for a dog would become astromonical. Even if demand were cut in half 4 mil.  you would need close to 500,000 licensed breeders to fill that demand. Do you think that there is anywhere near that number of what people call responsible breeders now??

Also restricting breeding too much would destroy breeds as we know them.  You have to maintain genetic diversity.

I can only speak for my breeds, but I think that any lab or pit bull person worth their salt would agree that both breeds would only benifit from a reduction in BYBs.  Breeders who do not give a crap can and have done a horrific amount of damage to both breeds.  With the populations of both breeds, I doubt that lack of genetic diversity is going to be a huge issue anytime soon.

I'm not rich, but I actually would not have a huge problem with having to pay a couple of thousand for my next purebred lab if it meant that the breed was more carefully regulated when it came to breeding. 

That may be true for your breed, but if those 500,000 licenses are all taken up by lab breeders, that kind of sucks for those of us who like rare breeds or are involved with breeds that already are lacking in diversity. The solutions that work for labs won't necessarily work for a rare breed like Eurasiers, which won't be the same as the solution for say, Cardigans. Laws aren't the answer. The answer is educating the public and reducing the demand